Church Sign Message Has Low Opinion of Christ and High Opinion of Mankind

[KenH]

Some folks really like to dwell on the idea that God is going to send a lot of other people to hell. So don't think you are invited to come to Christ.

I have no idea how you got such from the OP.

 

[KenH]

I understand the point, and tend to agree, but the sanctimonious nature of the condemnation is worse than the sign.

I have no idea what you think in the OP is sanctimonious.

I realize in this day and time that many people want a "feel good", "I'm okay and you're okay", insipid, false religion. I want no part of such. I own my vileness, I do not claim that in myself I am anything but a dirty, filthy, rotten sinner, saved by the free sovereign grace of God because Christ fulfilled ALL of the conditions for my salvation.

 

[KenH]

Christ died for the ungodly

There you have it - Christ died for the ungodly. God's elect are a bunch of dirty, filthy, rotten, wretches before He regenerates them(and even afterward(Romans 7:14-25), even though He chose them before the foundation of the world. I own my vileness, I do not claim that in myself I am anything but a dirty, filthy, rotten sinner, saved by the free sovereign grace of God because Christ fulfilled ALL of the conditions for my salvation.

As Joseph Irons put it in a hymn in Zion's Hymns:

"Black, Yet Comely"

Song of Solomon 1:5 I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, As the tents of Kedar, As the curtains of Solomon.

1. Mysterious truth, the Saints are all
Both black and comely too;
Black and polluted through the fall,
Comely in Jesus' view.

2 Black as the tents of Kedar's race,
They own themselves most vile;
But comely through their Surety's grace,
And favour'd with His smile.

3 I'll own my blackness till I lie,
Abas'd at Jesus' feet;
I'll claim my comeliness, and cry,
"Lord, take me to thy seat."

 

[Van]

Quite a thread, proclaiming God's impact on our lives is not beneficial.

Pro 11:4
Riches do not benefit on the day of wrath,
But righteousness rescues from death.

Rom 6:22
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

 

[JD731]

There you have it - Christ died for the ungodly. God's elect are a bunch of dirty, filthy, rotten, wretches before He regenerates them(and even afterward(Romans 7:14-25), even though He chose them before the foundation of the world. I own my vileness, I do not claim that in myself I am anything but a dirty, filthy, rotten sinner, saved by the free sovereign grace of God because Christ fulfilled ALL of the conditions for my salvation.

As Joseph Irons put it in a hymn in Zion's Hymns:

"Black, Yet Comely"

Song of Solomon 1:5 I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, As the tents of Kedar, As the curtains of Solomon.

1. Mysterious truth, the Saints are all
Both black and comely too;
Black and polluted through the fall,
Comely in Jesus' view.

2 Black as the tents of Kedar's race,
They own themselves most vile;
But comely through their Surety's grace,
And favour'd with His smile.

3 I'll own my blackness till I lie,
Abas'd at Jesus' feet;
I'll claim my comeliness, and cry,
"Lord, take me to thy seat."

KenH, why do you think only the Reformed are ungodly? By the time one reads through the first 4 chapters of Romans, Paul has made a case that everyone is ungodly. Those before the flood, those Jews under the law, those gentiles without law, those since the law, and he says there is no difference in them. One sin makes a man ungodly and in need of salvation. So, who did Christ die for? He died for the ungodly. He died for the good man who has sinned and the bad man who has sinned and all in between. God the Father, the judge of all men, asks only that one own his condition as a sinner, repent of going his own way, and believe that God has provided the way for all who will to be reconciled to himself and to come to him in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, who substituted himself, a perfect sinless man, to ransom a world of ungodly sinners by paying off our debt in his own body on the tree of Calvary. What a blessing to know that and what a savior we have in our Lord Jesus Christ. May he be showered with everlasting praise from our lips and our hearts.

What you preach is not the gospel of Christ, nor the gospel of God. The foundation of the Christian faith is the cross of Jesus Christ, not ethereal election. The glory of our Lord is robbed by making election the foundation of our faith.

1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Jesus Christ is the only man chosen of God before the foundation of the world and now all who are in him are safe because he has already tasted death for us all and God cannot see us as sinners any longer. He sees us in Christ.

 

[DaveXR650]

I have no idea how you got such from the OP.

Just that there is an emphasis in the OP on God doing whatsoever He pleases. (Read the verses.) It seems to offend the OP that one of the things God pleases to do is save people and invite them to come to Him.

 

[JonC]

Can you be specific?

I need to gauge the request with an honest question for you and @AustinC .

I have read both of your posts for years and have the utmost respect for both of you even when we disagree.

The crux of this disagreement is whether man's actions dictate a response from God.

You two view this as man controlling God, and I can actually understand how you'd come to that conclusion.

Do either of you, being students of the Word, know of any verse or passage that describes divine action as contingent on man?

 

[KenH]

Do either of you, being students of the Word, know of any verse or passage that describes divine action as contingent on man?

From fallen man's viewpoint it may appear that man is the captain of his own fate, but the Bible does not teach that. To teach that man has free will would mean that man could prevent God from achieving His will. It is absurd to teach that the creature can frustrate his Creator.

"God's will determines all the choices and circumstances of his creatures, so that nothing is up to man's "free will." In fact, because God is completely sovereign, man has no free will:

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

All things are decided and caused by God – nothing is free from his control, and he has not chosen to forego his control on anything. The doctrine is repulsive to those who abhor the rule and honor of God, and so they oppose it. But the doctrine is a source of comfort and celebration to those who love him. Why would we want it any other way, than for God to rule over all things? And what better life can we wish for, than to be ruled by God?"

- from Vincent Cheung's Systematic Theology

 

[KenH]

Just that there is an emphasis in the OP on God doing whatsoever He pleases. (Read the verses.) It seems to offend the OP that one of the things God pleases to do is save people and invite them to come to Him.

You seem to be offended that God does whatsoever He pleases.

Yes, God is pleased to save His elect, chosen and given to God the Son to their Surety before the foundation of the world.

The gospel of Christ is not an offer. The gospel of Christ is a declaration of what He has accomplished for His sheep to be their perfect righteousness, which is imputed to His sheep, just as the sins of His sheep were imputed to Him and He paid their sin debt on the cross.

 

[JonC]

From fallen man's viewpoint it may appear that man is the captain of his own fate, but the Bible does not teach that. To teach that man has free will would mean that man could prevent God from achieving His will. It is absurd to teach that the creature can frustrate his Creator.

"God's will determines all the choices and circumstances of his creatures, so that nothing is up to man's "free will." In fact, because God is completely sovereign, man has no free will:

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

All things are decided and caused by God – nothing is free from his control, and he has not chosen to forego his control on anything. The doctrine is repulsive to those who abhor the rule and honor of God, and so they oppose it. But the doctrine is a source of comfort and celebration to those who love him. Why would we want it any other way, than for God to rule over all things? And what better life can we wish for, than to be ruled by God?"

- from Vincent Cheung's Systematic Theology

Ok....I agree that nothing is beyond God's control. I think we agree on a lot here (I believe everything is predestined).

But my question remains. The reason is that I am a compatiblist (I believe that God is infinitely greater than man, so I see a flaw in the God's will vs man's will as it reduces the mind/ will of God to the mind/ will of man).

Do you know of any passages that place divine action as contingent on man?

 

[KenH]

KenH, why do you think only the Reformed are ungodly?

I don't. Also, for the record, I am not Reformed.

God the Father, the judge of all men, asks only that one own his condition as a sinner, repent of going his own way, and believe that God has provided the way

God requires a perfect righteousness, not a good college try. What you advocate is salvation based on man's sincerity. Just how much sincerity do you claim that a person must exhibit - 70%, 80%, 90% 95%? No one is going to show perfect sincerity. Your idea of the gospel is a false religion in which there is no salvation as you condition it on man fulfilling conditions, whereas the gospel of Christ declares that Christ fulfilled all of the conditions for salvation on behalf of His sheep.

The foundation of the Christian faith is the cross of Jesus Christ

Absolutely.

Jesus Christ is the only man chosen of God before the foundation of the world

Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

(emphasis mine - they are given to Christ before the foundation of the world - Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world; 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

 

[KenH]

Do you know of any passages that place divine action as contingent on man?

Since the Bible teaches that God is absolutely totally sovereign, then obviously no such passage exists.

 

[DaveXR650]

The gospel of Christ is not an offer. The gospel of Christ is a declaration of what He has accomplished for His sheep to be their perfect righteousness, which is imputed to His sheep, just as the sins of His sheep were imputed to Him and He paid their sin debt on the cross.

There is an offer and it's upon the condition of you coming by faith.

 

[KenH]

There is an offer and it's upon the condition of you coming by faith.

If salvation is based in the least little bit on unclean man meeting some condition, then not a single person would be saved.

"A man cannot make himself clean by anything he can do, by his repentance and humiliation, by his good works, duties, and services; none can do this but God." - excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Job 14:4

 

[JonC]

Since the Bible teaches that God is absolutely totally sovereign, then obviously no such passage exists.

But you are wrong.

Scripture is replete with passages conditioning divine action on man - both towards salvation and towards punishment.

You are assuming these passages would contradict divine sovereignty. But that shows a problem with your theology, not with Scripture.

Can you find any?

Hint - what will God do if man repents? what will God do if man disobeys His law? What did man do for God to give them over to depraved minds? What does God do if man asks?

 

[KenH]

But you are wrong.

It is not a matter of if I am right or if you are wrong. God said it, that settles it.

what will God do if man repents?

Repentance is a gift from God. Acts of the Apostles 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Also, faith is a gift from God. Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.

(emphasis mine)

 

[DaveXR650]

If salvation is based in the least little bit on unclean man meeting some condition, then not a single person would be saved.

"A man cannot make himself clean by anything he can do, by his repentance and humiliation, by his good works, duties, and services; none can do this but God." - excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Job 14:4

That's a different argument. "Make himself clean". No one is saying that. But faith is a condition for salvation in the sense that if you have faith you will be saved. If you don't you will not. Faith is separated out and unique in that it is the actual connection of a person to Christ. The Reformation is based upon that. You are not reformed as you said so don't worry about it.

 

[JonC]

It is not a matter of if I am right or if you are wrong. God said it, that settles it.



Repentance is a gift from God. Acts of the Apostles 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Also, faith is a gift from God. Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.

(emphasis mine)

Scripture also offers many passages of divine action being conditioned on man.

But you point out what I mean. I agree with the passages you present, but I do not need to explain away passages telling us if God's actions in response to man because these are not, IMHO, contradictions.

So I do not doubt the passages you present. BUT what do you do with all of those passages presenting God's actions as a response to man?

 

[KenH]

Faith is separated out

Separated out from what?

 

[KenH]

. BUT what do you do with all of those passages presenting God's actions as a response to man?

Present one and let's deal with it.