Church Sign Message Has Low Opinion of Christ and High Opinion of Mankind

[JonC]

Present one and let's deal with it.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Is it true that if anyone hears God's voice and opens the door, He will come in to him and will dine with him?

 

[DaveXR650]

Separated out from what?

Separated out from all other things that pertain to being saved. Pursuit of holiness, love for God and your neighbor, forgiving those who wrong you. All those things might be thought of as conditions in some context but you are saved by faith alone. The reformation is based on that and none of the other things apply in that way. Faith is unique and separate.

 

[KenH]

Faith is unique and separate

Nope. It is not separate. The command is to believe and to repent, both of which are gifts from God(as I explained in my post #76 earlier in this thread), not generated by fallen man himself - Acts of the Apostles 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

(emphasis mine)

 

[KenH]

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Is it true that if anyone hears God's voice and opens the door, He will come in to him and will dine with him?

Ah, but who is it that opens the "door"? Acts of the Apostles 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

(emphasis mine)

And, who gives a new heart? Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Notice, God gives a new heart, God puts a new spirit within, God takes away the stony heart, God gives a heart of flesh, God puts His spirit within, God causes to walk in His statues and keep His judgments.

 

[DaveXR650]

Nope. It is not separate. The command is to believe and to repent, both of which are gifts from God(as I explained in my post #76 earlier in this thread), not generated by fallen man himself - Acts of the Apostles 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now you're floundering. Some say faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin, which would make your distinction meaningless. Also, when you say repentance, are you meaning that you change your mind about the path you are on and turn to Christ? In that case it comes first but it still is not the actual connection you have with Christ. Or do you mean repenting of various sins and offenses toward God. In that case it may come at the same time, before, or after faith and is continuous thereafter. But still, faith is unique in Christian salvation. When a bitten Israelite had to go look at the serpent I guess he did first have to change is mind about lying where he was and go look but the look of faith was what linked him to the healing power. Sorry, this is sound theology. A gospel that does not have faith at it's core is another gospel I'm afraid.

 

[AustinC]

Now you're floundering. Some say faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin, which would make your distinction meaningless. Also, when you say repentance, are you meaning that you change your mind about the path you are on and turn to Christ? In that case it comes first but it still is not the actual connection you have with Christ. Or do you mean repenting of various sins and offenses toward God. In that case it may come at the same time, before, or after faith and is continuous thereafter. But still, faith is unique in Christian salvation. When a bitten Israelite had to go look at the serpent I guess he did first have to change is mind about lying where he was and go look but the look of faith was what linked him to the healing power. Sorry, this is sound theology. A gospel that does not have faith at it's core is another gospel I'm afraid.

What happened to the bitten Edomite who got bit by the same snake? Or the Hittite or Amorite that was bitten?
Why only the chosen people of the Covenant? Did God give any other people a choice?
What is particular about Israel? Were they more holy or more kind? Were they more faithful or worshipful?

 

[KenH]

Also, when you say repentance, are you meaning

I am talking about Biblical repentance - Hebrews 6:1 Repentance from dead works. (That verse also keeps faith and repentance together - "faith toward God."

One has to give up all hope of salvation by his own efforts, turn from them, and look to Christ ALONE as the Lord our Righteousness(Jeremiah 23:6)

Just as those folks in Numbers chapter 21 had to give up efforts of trying to avoid those fiery serpents, or trying to kill them, or trying to find some antidote to their bites, and look to the brass serpent.

 

[JonC]

Ah, but who is it that opens the "door"? Acts of the Apostles 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

(emphasis mine)

And, who gives a new heart? Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Notice, God gives a new heart, God puts a new spirit within, God takes away the stony heart, God gives a heart of flesh, God puts His spirit within, God causes to walk in His statues and keep His judgments.

You are reasoning away the verse. Jesus said IF anyone opens the door THEN...

That is a conditional statement.

I agree with the other passages as well. I just do not see them as contradictions.

 

[KenH]

What happened to the bitten Edomite who got bit by the same snake? Or the Hittite or Amorite that was bitten?
Why only the chosen people of the Covenant? Did God give any other people a choice?
What is particular about Israel? Were they more holy or more kind? Were they more faithful or worshipful?

Good point. The Lord chose and loved ancient Israel because...He chose and loved them.

Deuteronomy 7:7-8 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: but because the LORD loved you.

 

[KenH]

You are reasoning away the verse. Jesus said IF anyone opens the door THEN...

I am not. I will not ever give in to the false religion that so many advocate today conditioned on man. I spent a little over 65.5 years of my life on earth in that mess and I will NOT go back to it. God saves me conditioned 100% on Christ ALONE. None of my salvation is conditioned on me in a least tiny little bit. If it was to be conditioned on me in the least little bit, then I would be doomed. Thus, now that God has given me eyes to see and ears to hear, I will never give in to the teaching you and others are espousing conditioned on man.

 

[JonC]

I am not. I will not ever give in to the false religion that so many advocate today conditioned on man. I spent a little over 65.5 years of my life on earth in that mess and I will NOT go back to it. God saves me conditioned 100% on Christ ALONE. None of my salvation is conditioned on me in a least tiny little bit. If it was to be conditioned on me in the least little bit, then I would be doomed. Thus, now that God has given me eyes to see and ears to hear, I will never give in to the teaching you and others are espousing conditioned on man.

I won't give in to false doctrine either.

But for me, I believe God said it and that settles it.

I am not encumbered by the "God's will vs man's will" philosophy and I believe there is error on both sides of that argument in what each denies. So it is a bit easier for me in a way because I don't have to reason away a set of Scripture on either side.

I can simply accept that if a man repents God is faithful to forgive. But I can also accept that God gives man a new heart and causes him to obey His statutes.

The "either or" problem is largely a problem with the Western mindset. I think this is because both sides diminish God by viewing the mind of God as the mind of man (just more powerful).

 

[KenH]

I won't give in to false doctrine either.

But for me, I believe God said it and that settles it.

I am not encumbered by the "God's will vs man's will" philosophy and I believe there is error on both sides of that argument in what each denies. So it is a bit easier for me in a way because I don't have to reason away a set of Scripture on either side.

I can simply accept that if a man repents God is faithful to forgive. But I can also accept that God gives man a new heart and causes him to obey His statutes.

The "either or" problem is largely a problem with the Western mindset. I think this is because both sides diminish God by viewing the mind of God as the mind of man (just more powerful).

Post whatever you post, @JonC, I'll not go along with your vain imaginings.

 

[JonC]

Post whatever you post, @JonC, I'll not go along with your vain imaginings.

You mean Scripture (you will not go along with Scripture).

And I know. You already made that clear when you denounced the idea that if man repents God is faithful to forgive as a false religion because to you that diminishes God's sovereignty.

But you would do much better to simply believe God.

Scripture is not the smorgasbord you make it out to be. It is not up to us to decide which passages to believe and which ones to explain away.

 

[DaveXR650]

One has to give up all hope of salvation by his own efforts, turn from them, and look to Christ ALONE as the Lord our Righteousness(Jeremiah 23:6)

That is a good definition of saving faith. Nothing wrong with that at all. That is classic Reformed theology. Repentance is of course implied. But YOU really do look. You really do have faith. Scripture identifies that as necessary.

 

[KenH]

You mean Scripture (you will not go along with Scripture).

I go along with Scripture. I don't go along with false religion that conditions salvation on man.

 

[KenH]

You really do have faith.

Yes, faith is a gift from God, as well as repentance from dead works.

 

[DaveXR650]

What happened to the bitten Edomite who got bit by the same snake? Or the Hittite or Amorite that was bitten?
Why only the chosen people of the Covenant? Did God give any other people a choice?
What is particular about Israel? Were they more holy or more kind? Were they more faithful or worshipful?

I agree about Israel. I'm not sure the Edomites or Hittites were involved in that at all. What point are you trying to make?

 

[KenH]

But you would do much better to simply believe God.

I believe God. I don't believe in false religion that conditions salvation in any amount whatsover on man.

Scripture is not the smorgasbord

Of course, it's not a smorgasbord. Scripture is to be taken as a whole.

you denounced the idea that if man repents God is faithful to forgive

I have done no such thing. Repentance, as well as faith, are gifts of God.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes, faith is a gift from God, as well as repentance from dead works.

I'd go along with that. I know Owen did and so did Edwards. They also said faith, in the way I explained it above, is a "condition". So what exactly is the problem?

 

[JonC]

I go along with Scripture. I don't go along with false religion that conditions salvation on man.

I also go along with Scripture. God is the Author of our faith.

The difference between you and I is simply that you only go along with passages of Scripture you understand to support your theology while I go along with all of Scripture.

I believe God said it and that settles it - for ALL of Scripture because I believe Scripture is "God breathed" regardless of how it fits our beliefs.