Clear up confusion about tongues!

[awaken]

Let me approach this another way and see if you understand and agree with me. "my spirit" refers to Paul's born again human spirit or the inward man which delights in the law of God (Jn. 3:6; Rom. 7:23).

I agree!

All true service to God must originate from within "my spirit" the regenerated spirit of man and can only be made manifest in the life of the believer by the indwelling power of the Spirit of God (Rom. 7:18; 8:9-13). If it does not originate with "my spirit" by the power of the Holy Spirit it is of "the flesh" or "according to the flesh."

I agree!

Therefore, praying in tongues is ONE form of praying that originates with "my spirit" but any and all sorts of true Spirit led praying, including "praying with my mind" also originates with "my spirit".

This I have agreed to in the past ...and still agree!

That is ONE of many things you can do "with your spirit" and therefore just because tongues is on the list does not mean "praying with your spirit" always and automaticaly must refer to tongues. Granted it does in this particular context. However, you are assuming then that "praying with my spirit" is equal to the phrase praying "in the Spirit" and that is simply not true.

Yes! We can pray with the spirit in tongues or understanding! I have agreed to this! Paul mentions both.

 

[awaken]

I have personally witnessed pentecostal form of tongue speaking and Hindu tongue speakers here in the Northwest. There is not one bit of difference in the patterns of sound, physical behavior, condition of the eyes (glazed over) or the common way they induce themselves to perform (music accompaniment with a worship leader).

This is the common esctatic utterance that can be found in many world religions and many occultic practices.

The experience is described the same in both instances. Hindu's are slain in the spirit, fall upon the ground, lose control of themselves just as I have personally witnessed among various sorts of pentecostals from divergent denominations. The same description of euphoria, the same physical characteristics and I have been a close student of this phenoma for nearly 40 years and personally was involved at the beginning of my Christian ministery with this movement. I have family members involved and friends saved out of this movment never to speak in esctatic utterances and slain in the spirit activites again after God saved them.

Again...I agree there is false out there! But His Spirit always bears witness with my spirit when I am around falsehood.

BUT..just because there is falsehood ....does not mean the real is not!

 

[The Biblicist]

You are missing the point of "in part" as it is equally applied to "prophecy" as it is to "knowledge" both of which are REVELATORY gifts. Hence, that which is "perfect" (Gr. telios) is what completes revelatory gifts.

Prophets had these revelatory gifts in their production of the scriptures. When the scriptures were provided it replaced that prophetic ministry and God's people were not to be guided any longer by ORAL TRADITIONS passed down by those who heard the prophet when living but were to be guided by his COMPLETED WRITTEN revelation as it replaced his ORAL TRADITIONS and his entire ministry (Isa. 8:20) as the final authority for their faith and practice.

Likewise, the entire New Testament was provided by the apostles and/or those "prophets" directly under their supervision.

When Paul wrote this letter "NOW" they were in the infantile stage of this progressive growth to COMPLETION or MATURITY in revelation (vv. 11)provided by the apostles.

They were as it were looking into a brass mirrow which illustrated the incomplete and partial revelation they now had in comparison with the completed revelation they would "THEN" have once finished. Their "in part" condition was compared to a brass mirror that allowed the looker to see themselves but with limitations. Such was the case of revelatory gifts as not all Christians possessed such gifts and thus most Christians were dependent upon those gifted men (Acts 13:1) for divine leadership.

Paul never says that this illustration is about seeing Christ face to face. Rather, what the mirror provides is the reality of what OTHERS really view them to be or as others see their face directly. His point is that the finished revelation of God's will provides the people of God with something they can see God's will apart from depending upon gifted individuals.

Tongues had ceased BEFORE full revelation replaced partial revelatory gifts and that is why tongues is dropped out in the continuing discussion in verses 9-13. It ceased OF ITSELF and that is true to apostolic history.

However, the problem at the church at Corinth was that they viewed and judged spirituality by certain gifts and there was no scriptures for the churches as final authority to guide them. However, "NOW" even without completed written revelation of God's will there does exist PRINCIPLES to establish the proper use of spiritual gifts and to judge spirituality and that is "Faith, hope and Charity" and the greatest principle to show a "better" principle that does REVEAL true spirituality and the "better way" to use spiritual gifts is "charity." This principle as defined by Paul in verses 1-8 is used in chapter 14 to establish the proper use of spiritual gifts, especially the gift of tongues.


I Corinthians 13:12-13 says nothing about seeing Christ face to face. What he says is that he himself can be seen as he is by others. A good mirror shows you what others see when they look at you. That is precisely what the function of God's Word does (James 1:19-23) it reveals what YOU really look like and what the TRUTH really looks like.

Yes, the Greek term translated "perfect" is neuter. All three gifts specified are REVELATORY gifts or gifts designed to reveal God's will. These gifts perform that function PARTIALLY. That which replaces them is REVELATION that performs that function fully as described by Paul in 2 Timothy 3;16-17 where the man of God "may be perfect, throughly furnished".

The two analogies which follow are designed to show that "NOW" or this point in the apostolic age these revelatory gifts are temporary. The first analogy deals with tongues and how they cease of themselves. Just as a infant babbles but then as he matures he puts away babbling and other childish thing so tongues will cease of itself when New Testament Christianity is provided with more MATURE ways to know the revealed will of God - the Scritpures.

Likewise, the analogy of the mirror versus how others really see you shows the temporary "in part" revelatory gifts and how they presently function in contrast to how the "perfect" or completed REVELATION of God's Word will function "THEN" when it is furnished to the churches. They will be able to see themselves as they are seen by Paul - immature and carnal (1 Cor. 3;1-3).

The "NOW" of faith hope and charity provide principles for spiritual discernment and proper use of spiritual gifts without any present written furnished Word of God. Paul uses these principles to reveal what true spirituality really is and the better way to use spiritual gifts in chapter 14 as you can see clearly love introduces 14:1.

 

[awaken]

It was for the church in only ONE SENSE! It was for the churches of Christ to use as a "sign" to the Jews that their Messiah, the promised rest had come (1 Cor. 14:20-22). It was used this way by God in every single instance in the book of Acts as in every case Jews were present.

And there are still unbelieving Jews today!

It was never designed for use among believers (1 Cor. 14:23) but Paul did not restrict it among believers as long as an interpretation accompanied it (1 Cor. 14:14-17; 26-27) and no more than three exercised it and then only one at a time in a decently and orderly manner.

Yes! it is one of the nine manifestations given to the body for the profit of the body! Paul was not condeming tongues or forbidding tongues...just how it was done in the assembly.

It is the fulfillment of many Old Testment prophecies concerning God's move from National Israel unto the Gentiles in regard to the COVENANT ADMINISTRATION of God within the professing kingdom of God on earth. It has to do with the mission of a New House of God - the church institution in contrast to the former Jewish House of God.

Jesus told the new house of God, the church, in Matthew 16:18 and 18:17-18 that the keys (administrative authority) in the kingdom would be given to them. This is inclusive of authority to make disciples, teaching them to observe all things, administer the ordinances and conduct public worship as the former house of God had done (Deut. 12:5-12).

I will agree! Lets just not leave off some of the things we are to observe. We are living under a better covenant!

Jesus told the leadership in the Jewish house of God that this kingdom authority would be taken from them in Matthew 21:43.

Jesus told the leadership in the Jewish house of God who "sat in the seat of Moes" (Kingdom administrative authority) that "YOUR house" would be left void meaning God would be forsaking that institution as HIS house and taking up residence in another new house of God - the church.

On the cross, the veil in the former house of God was split from the top down demonstrating God had left their house as predicted by Christ.

On the day of Pentecost the new house of God, built up a spiritual house of living stones assembled in one place and this transfer occurred (Acts 2:1) which was the common transferral method in every previous new house of God since the tabernacle (Ex. 40) and the temple (2 Chron. 7:1-3) where at the beginning after it had been built during the dedication service it was baptized/immersed in the shikinah glory of God ONCE and never repeated, when fire came down from heaven and lit the altar (tongues of fire upon the heads of the members of God's house in Jerusalem).

In the case of the New Testament institutional house of God this baptism was repeated only one more time in Acts 10 (Act 11:15-16) as affirmation that it was to include Gentile believers on an EQUAL basis with the Jewish members.

Take note that although thousands had been saved and added to the new House of God in Jerusalem since Pentecost that the nearest reference point that Peter could identify what happened in Acts 10 with was what happened "AT the beginning" with them on Pentecost, proving it was not a repetitious event with every individual believer but rather a corporate event with the inaugeration of the new house of God as it was with all former new houses of God.

You are stretching it on this! THe Day of Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit was poured out and available to all believers. We are the tabernacle of God. THe Holy Spirit has not lost His power! The same power given that day is still available to us!

Sign gifts were not performed by anyone but the apostles from Acts 2 to Acts 6:5 as these sign gifts were the "sign" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12) and conveyed through laying on of their hands (Acts 8:15-19).

Laying on of hands was not done in Acts 10 or Acts 2. More than the apostles spoke in tongues...

 

[The Biblicist]

Again...I agree there is false out there! But His Spirit always bears witness with my spirit when I am around falsehood.

BUT..just because there is falsehood ....does not mean the real is not!

I believe you are very sincere and truly beleive your experience and what your church practices is true to God's Word. Thus I don't doubt your sincerity.

However, what I do challenge is your discernment of truth. I had a friend who formerly was just as sincere as you and practiced what you practiced in a church that practiced what you practiced. We were not friends at first but opponents in regard to this issue. He was a fireman in Lexington Kentucky. Well, some weeks later the Lord saved him. He left his former church, forsook his former practice of tongue speaking came and was baptized and joined our church and has been a stable godly member from that point forward and still is as far as I know and yet never attempted to practice that stuff again. He was and I hope still is an active and good witness for Christ and would share his testimony of salvation regularly.

Now, I am not saying every one who practices these things are lost. However, how do you explain the Lord saving this man and yet removing any desire to ever do these things again?

 

[The Biblicist]

And there are still unbelieving Jews today!

Please read Isaiah 28:15-25 as the Lord makes it clear this "sign" had a limited time application and the rejection of this sign would end in judgment of the nation of Israel. That did occur and tongues did "cease of itself" because it served the purpose God ordained for it within the time frame God ordained for it.

Yes! it is one of the nine manifestations given to the body for the profint of the body!

You are still confusing "sign" gifts with service and servant gifts. The "sign" gifts are explicilty connected with the "sign" of an apostles in 2 Cor. 12:12 whereas the other service gifts are not. The apostolic office no longer exists today and can't possibly exist today for many clear Biblical reasons.

First, due to its qualifications (Acts 1:21-22).

Second, it is clearly identified as foundational in nature not durative (Eph. 2:20).

Third, Paul explicitly states he was the "last" of apostles (1 Cor. 15:8) and the term "last" translates the Greek term "eschatos" which is used three times in the same chapter to mean the last with none to follows. The "last" enemy is death (v. 26) and it is cast into the lake of fire at the conclusion of the Great White Judgement (Rev. 20:15).Jesus was the "last" Adam (v. 45) and there are none to follow him. The resurrection occurs at the "last" trump (v. 52) and there are no more to follow it (Rev. 11:15-18).

Fourth, not one single solitary self-proclaimed apostles after the first century has ever passed the Biblical tests of a prophet and the apostles were prophets as they spoke and wrote by inspiration.

 

[awaken]

Yes, the Greek term translated "perfect" is neuter. All three gifts specified are REVELATORY gifts or gifts designed to reveal God's will. These gifts perform that function PARTIALLY. That which replaces them is REVELATION that performs that function fully as described by Paul in 2 Timothy 3;16-17 where the man of God "may be perfect, throughly furnished".

So are you perfect?

The two analogies which follow are designed to show that "NOW" or this point in the apostolic age these revelatory gifts are temporary. The first analogy deals with tongues and how they cease of themselves. Just as a infant babbles but then as he matures he puts away babbling and other childish thing so tongues will cease of itself when New Testament Christianity is provided with more MATURE ways to know the revealed will of God - the Scritpures.

Nowhere in 1 Cor. 13 does it refer to tongues ceasing when the original apostles died. The immaturity is not using love when operating in the gifts.

Likewise, the analogy of the mirror versus how others really see you shows the temporary "in part" revelatory gifts and how they presently function in contrast to how the "perfect" or completed REVELATION of God's Word will function "THEN" when it is furnished to the churches. They will be able to see themselves as they are seen by Paul - immature and carnal (1 Cor. 3;1-3).

1 John 3:2 "Beloved now are we the sons of God, and it doth not appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
Phil. 3:12 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus"

The "NOW" of faith hope and charity provide principles for spiritual discernment and proper use of spiritual gifts without any present written furnished Word of God. Paul uses these principles to reveal what true spirituality really is and the better way to use spiritual gifts in chapter 14 as you can see clearly love introduces 14:1.

I agree Love is the theme of this chapter and without love none of the gifts will serve the purpose God intended!

 

[The Biblicist]

You are stretching it on this! THe Day of Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit was poured out and available to all believers. We are the tabernacle of God. THe Holy Spirit has not lost His power! The same power given that day is still available to us!

I fully understand your view. However, you are making a very serious mistake. Romans 8:8-9 classifies all humanity into two classifications "in the flesh" and "in the Spirit." No other kind of humans have ever existed except lost versus saved, children of God versus children of your father the Devil (Jn. 8), those in God's kingdom by new birth (Jn. 3) or those in the kingdom of darkness. Those spiritually dead versus those spiritually alive.

Your view and the view of most denominations deny the fundemental nature of man which has not changed since the fall of Adam and has no other remedy but regeneration by the Spirit of God. The same Savior, same salvation, same gospel was preached and believed before the cross as after the cross and the scriptures clearly state this in no uncertain terms (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23).

There is no such thing as a human being that is not spiritually dead due to the Adamic fall and there is no other salvation from that state but spiritual life and that is impossible apart from the indwelling regenerating Spirit of Christ - Roman 8:8-9 - and all who are without the Spirit of Christ are "none of his."

The baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with with the gospel, or with gospel salvation or the indwelling Spirit in the individual.

 

[awaken]

I believe you are very sincere and truly beleive your experience and what your church practices is true to God's Word. Thus I don't doubt your sincerity.

Appreciated!

However, what I do challenge is your discernment of truth. I had a friend who formerly was just as sincere as you and practiced what you practiced in a church that practiced what you practiced. We were not friends at first but opponents in regard to this issue. He was a fireman in Lexington Kentucky. Well, some weeks later the Lord saved him. He left his former church, forsook his former practice of tongue speaking came and was baptized and joined our church and has been a stable godly member from that point forward and still is as far as I know and yet never attempted to practice that stuff again. He was and I hope still is an active and good witness for Christ and would share his testimony of salvation regularly.

Now, I am not saying every one who practices these things are lost. However, how do you explain the Lord saving this man and yet removing any desire to ever do these things again?

I can not answer that question. I do not know the man's heart! But I can give you just as many witnesses of the opposite!
I have questioned my experience with God...even my salvation! But God has always confirmed my belief/experience by His Word!

What I have experienced is not what most here have shared (falsehood).
I was on the other end of this defending it as you are now. I was in search of truth! Through prayer and studing...I came across what I am sharing here.
Once I realized I was taught wrong, I repented and ask God to forgive my ignorance and show me the whole truth concerning the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
I am still in a Baptist church that believe what most Baptist believe concerning salvation. I cherish my Baptist raising...it brought me to the cross of Jesus. But what most Baptist fail in is teaching us is how to walk in the power that God promised us!

 

[The Biblicist]

So are you perfect?

Again the term perfect is NEUTER and has nothing to do with me or Christ or His coming. It is the COMPLETION of incomplete revelvatory gifts that reveal God's will. Ask yourself what is the function of revelatory gifts? Answer: to provide the revealed will of God in a certain matter. Therefore what does "perfect" refer in contrast to incomplete revelation or revelation given in part? The completed revealed will of God as in 2 Tim. 3:17.

Nowhere in 1 Cor. 13 does it refer to tongues ceasing when the original apostles died.

The middle voice demands it dies out of itself rather than being stopped by that which is "perfect. If you define "perfect" to the coming of Christ, then it dies out before that. If you define "perfect" as what happens to us in the resurrection then it dies out before that. It dies out before the COMPLETED revelation occurs. So actually it died out before John the last living apostle died.

The immaturity is not using love when operating in the gifts.

Paul rebukes them in 1 Cor. 12:29-31 telling them in spite of the fact that the Holy Spirit determines the gift not them (v. 11) and that the Holy Spirit determines what function they are to perform in the body (v. 18) not them and that not all Christians have such gifts (vv. 29-30) they still pursue gifts as though none of this matters. They are spiritually immature and Paul wil show them a BETTER WAY to pursue gifts that is in keeping with all these facts they cannot change no matter how zealous they pursue such gifts. The way of love - ch. 13

Hence, Love in lieu of no completed written revelation that is available so they can look into it like a mirror that really reveals what they really look like - IMMATURE - UNSPIRITUAL - CARNAL - love can be used as a principle to define (13:1-8) the proper use of spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 14:1) and proper spiriuality (1 Cor. 14:37) and so Paul applies this principle in chapter fourteen by mutual edification, order, descency, obedience to the scriptures they do possess, etc.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Mild? Some things are simply true! What you and others don't like is exposure to what you are really saying and doing -truth hurts sometimes.

Now you butt into a conversation that you know nothing about because it gives you opportunity to do the very thing you are complaining about - lash out due to your own martry complex. You prefer to play the martry when a spade is called a spade instead of many times simply facing the fact that you absolutely deserve such rebukes.

Instead of trying to cause more trouble whiy don't you enter the discussion. I have responded to your last post with an exposition of 1 Cor. 13:8-13 but no response from you? Did you see it?

So, I deserve to be called a cultist, blasphemer, heretic, and apostate. You want truth? What you have said here shows the blackness of your heart. You are beneath despicable.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Interesting? I am not of the Pentecostal and not sure what the Charismatic believe. I was raised Baptist all my life...Missionary Baptist...Now in a SBC. We believe what the Bible says! THe Holy Spirit has control of our services...and they are powerful! He manifest and edifies every service!

I'll say this to you: I respect your perseverance. Expect your character, intelligence, honesty, and your relationship with God to be questioned by this mob.

 

[The Biblicist]

But what most Baptist fail in is teaching us is how to walk in the power that God promised us!

I can agree with this statement although I do not beleive your solution is the Biblical remedy.

We are made in the image of God as a three-fold being "spirt...soul...and body" and our salvation is designed to save all three aspects according to three tenses (past, present, and future) according to three theological distintions (regeneration/justification - past; progressive sanctification - present; glorification - future).

Present progressive santification deals with the salvation of our daily life where we experience both life and death depending if we are walking in the Spirit or living after the flesh. When we sin we are EXPERIENTIALLY separated from God thus experience "death" which is separation thus that aspect of our life is forever lost to the glory of God as well as separated EXPERIENTIALLY from the blessngs of salvation until our fellowship is restored by confession and repentance. Hence, our daily lives can be "lost" forever while our soul is not affected at all (1 Cor. 3:15).

Our daily lives are being saved for the "glory" of God as we "walk" in the Spirit and it is in that walk we EXPERIENCE salvational blessings and growth.

This is a tremendous subject that is very little understood by most Christians including Baptists that is absolutely wonderful.

 

[The Biblicist]

So, I deserve to be called a cultist, blasphemer, heretic, and apostate. You want truth? What you have said here shows the blackness of your heart. You are beneath despicable.

No, I did not say you deserve all that you have experienced. However, without a doubt you have and do deserve some of it. I have deserved some of the rebukes I have gotten but not all.

However, your primary role seems to be to play the part of a martry every time now someone says you are wrong. DHK never said what you accused him of saying and anyone without an axe to grind can clearly see that. However, you are so sensitive you read everything one way - your way. You seek after such things just to vent.

 

[The Biblicist]

Laying on of hands was not done in Acts 10 or Acts 2. More than the apostles spoke in tongues...

In Acts 2 the gift to the apostles was directly first given. In acts 10 there is good reason provided by the context which are clear and explicit why no hands were laid upon them. No jew would touch a gentile due to ceremonial defilement and Peter made that clear with his introductory words to Corneilus:

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

It was only after God provided miraculous manifestation of His approval that even then Peter had to ask his Jewish witnesses:

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

No, I did not say you deserve all that you have experienced. However, without a doubt you have and do deserve some of it. I have deserved some of the rebukes I have gotten but not all.

However, your primary role seems to be to play the part of a martry every time now someone says you are wrong. DHK never said what you accused him of saying and anyone without an axe to grind can clearly see that. However, you are so sensitive you read everything one way - your way. You seek after such things just to vent.

This "martyr" bull is not true. I have started speaking up every time I see anyone attacked or unjustly accused -- as I did in this thread. I am sick of it. No one has the right to do that. At least one other poster saw what was being done here and spoke up about it, and he got slammed for doing that!

No human being is 100% correct in his/her views. People have a right to post their beliefs without being personally attacked.

 

[The Biblicist]

This "martyr" bull is not true. I have started speaking up every time I see anyone attacked or unjustly accused -- as I did in this thread. I am sick of it. No one has the right to do that. At least one other poster saw what was being done here and spoke up about it, and he got slammed for doing that!

No human being is 100% correct in his/her views. People have a right to post their beliefs without being personally attacked.

Your views in regard to what I consider ESSENTIALS of the Faith are heretical and that is simply the facts AS I SEE THEM. You deny the substitutonary atonement of Christ. You deny original sin. You deny justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. You deny eternal security of a true believer. You deny the whole levitical sacrificial system was God ordained and God originated and the list goes on.

As long as you propagate such outright heresies you will be properly called a "heretic."

This thead has just about run its course as DHK usually closes them down at 30 pages and it is near that point now.

I like you as a person and I believe you are a good descent individual and you have shown genuine concern for others and I commend you for all of that. However, in regard to your doctrine you are a heretic in my opinion and will be as long as you deny and reject these fundmentals of salvation.

I do not have any personal ill will toward your person. As a person you can be very likable. However, we are not dealing with likability on this forum but with doctrine and there are some doctrines that must be labled exactly what they are - heresies.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Your views in regard to what I consider ESSENTIALS of the Faith are heretical and that is simply the facts AS I SEE THEM. You deny the substitutonary atonement of Christ. You deny original sin. You deny justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. You deny eternal security of a true believer. You deny the whole levitical sacrificial system was God ordained and God originated and the list goes on.

As long as you propagate such outright heresies you will be properly called a "heretic."

This thead has just about run its course as DHK usually closes them down at 30 pages and it is near that point now.

I like you as a person and I believe you are a good descent individual and you have shown genuine concern for others and I commend you for all of that. However, in regard to your doctrine you are a heretic in my opinion and will be as long as you deny and reject these fundmentals of salvation.

I do not have any personal ill will toward your person. As a person you can be very likable. However, we are not dealing with likability on this forum but with doctrine and there are some doctrines that must be labled exactly what they are - heresies.

You can have the last word; I'm done.

 

[awaken]

Please read Isaiah 28:15-25 as the Lord makes it clear this "sign" had a limited time application and the rejection of this sign would end in judgment of the nation of Israel. That did occur and tongues did "cease of itself" because it served the purpose God ordained for it within the time frame God ordained for it.

Interesting passage Isaiah 28...but I do not think we are going to see the same thing.
"For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, THis (another tongue) is the rest wherewith may cause the weary to rest; and this(another tongue) is the refreshing: yet they would not hear."

You are still confusing "sign" gifts with service and servant gifts. The "sign" gifts are explicilty connected with the "sign" of an apostles in 2 Cor. 12:12 whereas the other service gifts are not. The apostolic office no longer exists today and can't possibly exist today for many clear Biblical reasons.

First, due to its qualifications (Acts 1:21-22).

Second, it is clearly identified as foundational in nature not durative (Eph. 2:20).

One you have not shown where the office of the apostles have ended.
Two.. foundational is speaking of teachings/ doctrine that they laid! (1 Cor. 3)

Third, Paul explicitly states he was the "last" of apostles (1 Cor. 15:8) and the term "last" translates the Greek term "eschatos" which is used three times in the same chapter to mean the last with none to follows. The "last" enemy is death (v. 26) and it is cast into the lake of fire at the conclusion of the Great White Judgement (Rev. 20:15).Jesus was the "last" Adam (v. 45) and there are none to follow him. The resurrection occurs at the "last" trump (v. 52) and there are no more to follow it (Rev. 11:15-18).

THat shows he was the last one that Jesus appeared to after his resurrection. Not the last apostle.

Fourth, not one single solitary self-proclaimed apostles after the first century has ever passed the Biblical tests of a prophet and the apostles were prophets as they spoke and wrote by inspiration.

No comment..

 

[awaken]

I fully understand your view. However, you are making a very serious mistake. Romans 8:8-9 classifies all humanity into two classifications "in the flesh" and "in the Spirit." No other kind of humans have ever existed except lost versus saved, children of God versus children of your father the Devil (Jn. 8), those in God's kingdom by new birth (Jn. 3) or those in the kingdom of darkness. Those spiritually dead versus those spiritually alive.

Your view and the view of most denominations deny the fundemental nature of man which has not changed since the fall of Adam and has no other remedy but regeneration by the Spirit of God. The same Savior, same salvation, same gospel was preached and believed before the cross as after the cross and the scriptures clearly state this in no uncertain terms (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23).

There is no such thing as a human being that is not spiritually dead due to the Adamic fall and there is no other salvation from that state but spiritual life and that is impossible apart from the indwelling regenerating Spirit of Christ - Roman 8:8-9 - and all who are without the Spirit of Christ are "none of his."

The baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with with the gospel, or with gospel salvation or the indwelling Spirit in the individual.

Can you define spiritual alive and spiritual dead? I understand it to be separated from God or connected to God. Our spirit is eternal...where we spend eternity depends on our descision about Jesus Christ...but that is another thread.