Col.2{16}

[Dr. Walter]

GE:


NOTHING GIVES YOU THE RIGHT to so generalise; causing whatever you say, to be the caricature of reality which is the Text.

It is impossible to answer to such mental gymnastics and you take occasion by it’s impossible. I can still in my old age with no effort at all do the summersaults and stuff I did in my young days, in my imagination. And you can't tell me I don't DO them.

You do God's Word disservice to SO 'compare' Colossians 2 and Act 15.

Then also, Dr Walter, you every time answer as were it the first time these Scriptures are given attention; you simply keep still about the answers ALREADY GIVEN. All that matters is that Dr Walter will be heard.

No mental gynastics in the least! Both Acts 15 and Galatians 2 introduce the subject with circumcision (Acts 15:2; Gal. 2:11-13). Both conclude with the doing away of the Old Covenant and all of its ceremonial laws (Acts 15:10; Col. 2:14,16). The Seventh day sabbath is the basis upon which the Sabbatical cycle intergrated with the ceremonial feasts (Lev. 23:2-3) and the Seventh Day Sabbath is the sign of the Old Covenant and it is done away with along with the seventh sabbatical structure built upon it (Col. 2:16).

Common sense should tell you that if the Seventh day Sabbath is the sign of the Old Covenant, then the Seventh day Sabbath is abolished when the Old Covenant is abolished! The sign of the New Covenant is anticipated in the New Covenant applications of the feasts and their first day of the week Sabbaths and established in the New Testament.

The Seventh day Sabbath is an offence to Christ and a repudiation of the New Covenant administration. The seventh day covenant is inseparably connected with the Old Covenant as the sign of the Old Covenant between God and Israel. That fact is irrefutable!

Ex 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

The Seventh Day sabbath is not a sign between God and congregations of Christ and those under the New Covenant administration. It has been abolished (Col. 2:16) and a better Sabbath day observance has been instituted as the sign of the resurrection (Psalm. 118:20-24 with Acts 4:10-11; Heb. 4:9; Rev. 1:10).

 

[Darrell C]

No one I can see is arguing about keeping the Law or not; no one is arguing about moral or ceremonial law; BUT YOU TWO, Dr Walter and Darrel C.

.

If that is true, please explain this:

Quoted from the O.P.

This is the scripture the sunday mornin go to meeting people like to point to to distance themselves from Gods sabbath day. Its also their biggy to eat their piggy. This is their main point to scripture. So what is Col.2{16} really saying if its not saying what the sunday morners say its saying?

Where, before the Covenant of Law was given, were men forbidden to eat "piggy?"


While I have not read the entire thread, it is not so hard to discern the intent of the O.P.

God's Law is holy, and established in the lives of His children, but is not confined to the Mosaic law, the keeping of which, is not only impossible for those who are not His children...it will not save them.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

This, positively is what Colossians 2:16 is ABOUT, and positively and in essence and detail, is saying ... no 'piggy-nonsense' disrespectful speaking about the Scripture :


(11b) “… in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh BY THE CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST, (12) you being co-buried with HIM in HIS Baptism (in his death) IN WHOM also you were CO-RAISED through the faith of the working OF GOD OF RAISING HIM from the dead. (13) And you, having been dead in your fleshly sins and un-circumcision (of heart), God co-quickened together with HIM : Forgiving us all the trespasses; (14) blotting out the written law document which by ordinances was issued against us – which was (UNTO DEATH) against us –, He removing it at the heart, took it out of the way HAVING NAILED IT TO THE CROSS : (15) THUS PUTTING THE RULERS (of the world and powers of darkness) OFF, He (Christ) IN IT (his death and resurrection), humiliated them openly TRIUMPHING OVER THEM— (16) THEREFORE THEN : Do not you let yourselves be judged or condemned with regard to eating and drinking (your freedom and forgiveness) OF FEAST either of (occasional) month's or of Sabbaths' (regular) WHICH ARE BUT A SHADOW STILL OF THINGS A-COMING : THE BODY OF CHRIST'S OWN ... holding to the Head ... growing with the growth of God. ….”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No mental gynastics in the least! Both Acts 15 and Galatians 2 introduce the subject with circumcision (Acts 15:2; Gal. 2:11-13). Both conclude with the doing away of the Old Covenant and all of its ceremonial laws (Acts 15:10; Col. 2:14,16). ...............

GE:

I, with reference to YOUR saying:

“

[..........................
"therefore" is based upon Christ "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us"

Peter refers to the same in Acts 15:

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”…

…said,

“NOTHING GIVES YOU THE RIGHT to so generalise; causing whatever you say, to be the caricature of reality which is the Text. It is impossible to answer to such mental gymnastics and you take occasion by it’s impossible”…

…to which you retort:

“No mental gynastics in the least! Both Acts 15 and Galatians 2 introduce the subject with circumcision (Acts 15:2; Gal. 2:11-13). Both conclude with the doing away of the Old Covenant and all of its ceremonial laws (Acts 15:10; Col. 2:14,16).”

“Acts 15 and Galatians 2”— WHO TALKED ABOUT “Acts 15 and Galatians 2” ?!

Then suddenly you subtly ‘introduce’, “Col. 2:14,16” in the place of “Gal. 2:11-13”— “Both (Acts 15 and Galatians 2) conclude with the doing away of the Old Covenant and all of its ceremonial laws (Acts 15:10; Col. 2:14,16).” ?!

That is how you got from Paul’s…

“…the written law document which by ordinances was issued against us – which was (UNTO DEATH) against us – removing it at the heart, took it out of the way HAVING NAILED IT TO THE CROSS : (15) THUS PUTTING THE RULERS”…

…to your own,

“Old Covenant and all of its ceremonial laws” …

…AVOIDING THE CRUX, THE ‘MORAL’ LAW the transgression of which meant DEATH! Thus, by having only ‘ceremonial laws’ blotted out by his death, you blot out all meaning and worth from Christ’s death which He died for the remission of “ALL SINS” and for redemption from DEATH AND THE DEATH-SENTENCE which the ‘moral’, eternal and unchangeable Law of God, pronounced “AGAINST US”! You are making the Word of God of no effect with your ‘exposition’ and explanation with "ceremonial laws" … no different than the SDAs.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

...............the Seventh Day Sabbath is the sign of the Old Covenant and it is done away with along with the seventh sabbatical structure built upon it (Col. 2:16).
...............

GE:

Only quote “Col. 2:16” where it says or alludes to, “the Seventh Day Sabbath is the sign of the Old Covenant and it is done away with along with the seventh sabbatical structure built upon it”… VERILY WHILE Paul directly commands the Colossian Christians, “DO NOT you let ANYBODY, judge or condemn you with regard to eating and drinking of Feast of month’s or of Sabbaths’.” It will make things so much easier!

You have a TOO fertile brain, Dr Walter.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

..............
Common sense should tell you that if the Seventh day Sabbath is the sign of the Old Covenant, then the Seventh day Sabbath is abolished when the Old Covenant is abolished! .................

GE:

Sure!

But what if the Seventh Day Sabbath were the sign of the NEW Covenant as well? Then the Seventh Day Sabbath would be CONFIRMED when and with the NEW Covenant, when and as it was INTRODUCED— which was “when and as God, raising Christ from the dead, exalted Him and set Him at his own Right Hand in heavenly Majesty”.

So yes, “the Seventh day Sabbath is abolished when the Old Covenant is abolished”— which abolishment was accomplished through Jesus Christ and in Him by the death-“sacrifice of Himself” on the cross. And in that He rose again from the dead, God once for all established “The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God” on “better promises” and “the Eternal Purpose of God”, “AND FROM ALL HIS WORKS, RESTED”.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

.............
The sign of the New Covenant is anticipated in the New Covenant applications of the feasts and their first day of the week Sabbaths and established in the New Testament.
......................

GE:

My!!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

............
The Seventh day Sabbath is an offence to Christ
.................

Jesus Christ:
“The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath Day”;

God the Father:
“My Holy Day”

The Holy Spirit:
“The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God”; “In the Spirit on The Lord’s Day”.

 

[Darrell C]

This, positively is what Colossians 2:16 is ABOUT, and positively and in essence and detail, is saying ... no 'piggy-nonsense' disrespectful speaking about the Scripture :

Not my terminology...it is pointed out to show the intent of the OP.

Thank you for the interpretation, but, that is not what is at the heart of this discussion, from my perspective.

The core issue would be whether believers are obligated to follow the practice of the Levitical economy.

GE:

…AVOIDING THE CRUX, THE ‘MORAL’ LAW the transgression of which meant DEATH! Thus, by having only ‘ceremonial laws’ blotted out by his death, you blot out all meaning and worth from Christ’s death which He died for the remission of “ALL SINS” and for redemption from DEATH AND THE DEATH-SENTENCE which the ‘moral’, eternal and unchangeable Law of God, pronounced “AGAINST US”! You are making the Word of God of no effect with your ‘exposition’ and explanation with "ceremonial laws" … no different than the SDAs.

This is an unjust charge. Having discerned the intent of the OP, Dr. Walter has addressed it.

To undercut the direct confrontation of the teaching of the keeping of the deeds of the law for salvation comes much closer to "making the Word of God of none effect" than simply ignoring the teaching itself.

 

[DHK]

Is there any command in the Bible, anywhere, that commands the Gentile believer to observe the Sabbath Day?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

.............
The seventh day covenant is inseparably connected with the Old Covenant as the sign of the Old Covenant between God and Israel. That fact is irrefutable!
..................

GE:

So if it’s an ‘irrefutable’, ‘fact’, “the sign” “is inseparably connected with”, “Covenant”, “between God” and “the People of God”, how do you get to “The Seventh day Sabbath is … a repudiation of the New Covenant administration”? The same God; the same Sabbath; and God’s one Covenant of Grace under former or present “dispensation” or “administration”?

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:

So if it’s an ‘irrefutable’, ‘fact’, “the sign” “is inseparably connected with”, “Covenant”, “between God” and “the People of God”, how do you get to “The Seventh day Sabbath is … a repudiation of the New Covenant administration”? The same God; the same Sabbath; and God’s one Covenant of Grace under former or present “dispensation” or “administration”?

No! That is not what I said. I did not say it is an inseparable covenant between God and "the people of God"!

What I said, "The seventh day covenant is inseparably connected with the Old Covenant as the sign of the Old Covenant between God and Israel. That fact is irrefutable.

The Covenant is the "OLD" Covenant
The sign is attached to the "OLD" Covenant
The sign is between God and ISRAEL

It is the "same God" but not "the same sabbath" on the same "fourth commandment" and it is not the same "people of God" but ISRAEL!

The Old covenant administration with ISRAEL and the seventh day Sabbath "sign" with ISRAEL has been abolished - Col. 2:14-16

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dr Walter:
“The Seventh day Sabbath is an offence to Christ”

Jesus Christ:
“The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath Day.”

“It is well to do GOOD on the Sabbath Day”— “in the Spirit on The Lord’s Day”… That is what the Sabbath Day was to Christ for; forever before, had been for to Him; and for ever afterwards to Christ will be for— because God is good and the ONLY DOER of good. Who is thinking he can take God’s Sabbath Day to do good on, away from Him? So that men will do good on another day of their own will in order to make of “the Sabbath the Son of Man is Lord of”, “an offense”?

Dr Walter:
“The Seventh day Sabbath is an offence to Christ”

God the Father:
“My Holy Day”; “The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God”.

Dr Walter:
“The Seventh day Sabbath is an offence to Christ”

The Holy Spirit and Triune God:
“In the Spirit on The Lord’s Day”.
“HE ON THE SABBATH DAY STOOD UP to read … He opened the Book … He found the place where IT IS WRITTEN: The SPIRIT of the LORD is upon ME … and He began to say unto them, THIS DAY is THIS Scripture, fulfilled in your ears…”

Dr Walter:
“The Seventh day Sabbath is an offence to Christ”

The Body of Believers:
“And all bear Him witness and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth … this day … And all they … when they heard … WERE FILLED WITH WRATH … this day.”

Dr Walter:
“The Seventh day Sabbath is an offence to Christ”

GOD:
Ex 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

Dr Walter:
The Seventh Day sabbath is not a sign between God and congregations of Christ and those under the New Covenant administration.

 

[Darrell C]

Is there any command in the Bible, anywhere, that commands the Gentile believer to observe the Sabbath Day?

I would say yes...by implication, anyway. But it would depend on how one interprets observance, from a limited Old Testament perspective, or from a perspective where New Testament revelation defines obedience as a spiritual matter, rather than that which is more ritualistic.

Exodus 20:10 (King James Version)

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:


What is interesting though, is, though they were expected to observe this, consider:

Exodus 12:43-49 (King James Version)

43And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:


44But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.


45A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.


46In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.


47All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.


48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


49One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.


Predating the law, observance of the Passover was allowed only for those who underwent circumcision, which also predated the law.

So, one could say that "gentiles" were commanded to observe the Sabbath, though, it would be a matter of the proselyte, rather than a general or even a direct command to the gentile population.

However, in light of the discussion at hand, keeping in mind that all physical acts of that day (both before and during) were meant to figure the reality of Christ, and the fulfillment of what they looked forward to, we can easily separate them from the obligations that are associated with the people of God today.

At least, that is the impression I have gotten from the content of this thread.

God bless.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dr Walter:
“The Seventh day Sabbath is an offence to Christ”.

My argument from the beginning was based upon post resurrection (Col. 2:14) not on pre-resurrection! You know that GE! So, why build a straw man argument that has its basis on pre-resurrection texts????

There is not one single post-resurrection text where the New Covenant Congregations met for worship on the Seventh day Sabbath - not one!

ALL YOU CAN PROVIDE ARE TEXTS WHERE PAUL DURING HIS MISSIONARY ACTIVITIES MET ON THE SABBATH IN THE SYNONOGUE IN ORDER TO GOSPELIZE THE JEWS OR ON THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH TO MEET WITH GENTILE PROSELYTES OF JUDAISM TO EVANGELIZE THEM.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No! That is not what I said. I did not say it is an inseparable covenant between God and "the people of God"!

What I said, "The seventh day covenant is inseparably connected with the Old Covenant as the sign of the Old Covenant between God and Israel. That fact is irrefutable.

The Covenant is the "OLD" Covenant
The sign is attached to the "OLD" Covenant
The sign is between God and ISRAEL

It is the "same God" but not "the same sabbath" on the same "fourth commandment" and it is not the same "people of God" but ISRAEL!

The Old covenant administration with ISRAEL and the seventh day Sabbath "sign" with ISRAEL has been abolished - Col. 2:14-16

GE:

You say, "I did not say it is an inseparable covenant between God and "the people of God"!"

You say, "The sign is between God and ISRAEL"

You say, "it is not the same "people of God" but ISRAEL!"

THOUGH YOU SAY, "the seventh day Sabbath "sign" with ISRAEL has been abolished - Col. 2:14-16" WHICH calls 'The People of God", "The Body of Christ's Own". You say 'Sabbath' in "Col. 2:14-16" is "the sign between God and ISRAEL"; you say 'The People of God' meant in "Col. 2:14-16" is "ISRAEL"-- whom "Col. 2:14-16" calls, "the Body of Christ's Own".

Therefore: "The sign between God and ISRAEL" is the sign between God and "the Body of Christ's Own" the Christian Church; and "The SIGN" between God and "the Body of Christ's Own" the Christian Church, is "the Sabbath-Seventh Day"-"sign".

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:

You say, "I did not say it is an inseparable covenant between God and "the people of God"!"

You say, "The sign is between God and ISRAEL"

You say, "it is not the same "people of God" but ISRAEL!"

THOUGH YOU SAY, "the seventh day Sabbath "sign" with ISRAEL has been abolished - Col. 2:14-16" WHICH calls 'The People of God", "The Body of Christ's Own". You say 'Sabbath' in "Col. 2:14-16" is "the sign between God and ISRAEL"; you say 'The People of God' meant in "Col. 2:14-16" is "ISRAEL"-- whom "Col. 2:14-16" calls, "the Body of Christ's Own".

Therefore: "The sign between God and ISRAEL" is the sign between God and "the Body of Christ's Own" the Christian Church; and "The SIGN" between God and "the Body of Christ's Own" the Christian Church, is "the Sabbath-Seventh Day"-"sign".

Not so! The Old Testament claims the seventh day Sabbath is the Old Covenant "sign" between God and Israel. The New Testament abolished the Old Covenant - and that you cannot deny along with its "sign" and "ceremonial types" which were as a "shadow" or "types" (Heb. 10:1; Col. 2:16-17) but the body or the essence which the shadow/types projected was Christ. The signs and types were abolished but the principles and truths projected by the signs and types are found in Christ.

Illustration - the sacrifices (Heb. 10:1-4) but the essence is a better sacrifice (Heb. 10:5-17). Illustration - the Seventh day Sabbath - Heb. 4:2-8 but the essence is a better Sabbath (Heb. 4:9-10) which commemorates the better work of resurrection (the first day of the week) and a better covenant - the New Covenant.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My argument from the beginning was based upon post resurrection (Col. 2:14) not on pre-resurrection! You know that GE! So, why build a straw man argument that has its basis on pre-resurrection texts????

There is not one single post-resurrection text where the New Covenant Congregations met for worship on the Seventh day Sabbath - not one!

ALL YOU CAN PROVIDE ARE TEXTS WHERE PAUL DURING HIS MISSIONARY ACTIVITIES MET ON THE SABBATH IN THE SYNAGOGUE IN ORDER TO GOSPELIZE THE JEWS OR ON THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH TO MEET WITH GENTILE PROSELYTES OF JUDAISM TO EVANGELIZE THEM.

GE:

What NOBLER, what MORE CHRISTIAN, what better GOSPEL aims or ideals or motives could there be than : "MISSIONARY ACTIVITIES MET (for) ON THE SABBATH IN THE SYNONOGUE IN ORDER TO GOSPELIZE THE JEWS OR ON THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH TO MEET WITH GENTILE PROSELYTES OF JUDAISM TO EVANGELIZE THEM"?! If that was not Paul's obedience to 'The Great Commission', WHAT COULD BE?!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Darrel C wrote:

"Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
Is there any command in the Bible, anywhere, that commands the Gentile believer to observe the Sabbath Day?

Is this quote from DHK from another thread?

Doesn't really matter.

The answer should concern BOTH anti-Sabbatharians like DHK AND Sabbatharians like Darrel C, BECAUSE BOTH 'parties' disregard the only real and true answer to DHK's question equally!

Because the ONLY true and real answer to the question, "Is there any command in the Bible, anywhere, that commands the Gentile believer to observe the Sabbath Day?" IS THE ANSWER CLAIMED TBSERVE THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK! Which of course is, the Resurrection of Christ ON THE CLAIMED DAY, whether "Sabbath's" as Matthew 28:1 READS, or, "Sunday" as Matthew 28:1 now-a days is sent into all the world to make disciples for the Big Lie.

Only secondarily, DHK's question can be answered with OTHER Scriptures that are SOLIDLY BASED UPON THE FIRST FACT OF CHRIST'S RESURRECTION "In the Sabbath's fullness of being daylight inclining towards the First Day of the week (mid-afternoon)", like Hebrews 4:8-10 where the RESURRECTION OF CHRIST FROM THE DEAD, “SABBATH’S”, IS CONSIDERED "the Rest" that "Jesus had given them ... HE HAVING ENTERED INTO HIS OWN REST AS GOD IN HIS OWN (right)" THROUGH RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD! "THEREFORE THEN INDEED" - 'ARA' - "THERE REMAINS VALID FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD KEEPING OF THE SABBATH DAY."

There are MANY other Scriptures…

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My argument from the beginning was based upon post resurrection (Col. 2:14) not on pre-resurrection! You know that GE! So, why build a straw man argument that has its basis on pre-resurrection texts????

There is not one single post-resurrection text where the New Covenant Congregations met for worship on the Seventh day Sabbath - not one!

ALL YOU CAN PROVIDE ARE TEXTS WHERE PAUL DURING HIS MISSIONARY ACTIVITIES MET ON THE SABBATH IN THE SYNONOGUE IN ORDER TO GOSPELIZE THE JEWS OR ON THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH TO MEET WITH GENTILE PROSELYTES OF JUDAISM TO EVANGELIZE THEM.

GE:

The pre-Resurrection God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, was the same 'post-Resurrection' God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever."

"God hath made THAT SAME JESUS WHOM YE HAVE CRUCIFIED, BOTH LORD AND CHRIST" --- "Lord" of "the Lord's Day" --- in that He "In the end : of the Sabbath Day", CONQUERED and “DESTROYED, the last enemy ... DEATH"!