Conditional salvation?

[carlaimpinge]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
“In order to be able to expound the Scriptures, and as an aid to your pulpit studies, you will need to be familiar with the commentators: a glorious army, let me tell you, whose acquaintance will be your delight and profit. Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.”

Charles Haddon Spurgeon

2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles

 

[Craigbythesea]

"If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility."

 

[carlaimpinge]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
"If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility."

I wonder if that is what the Pharisees said to the Lord and Paul AFTER they had "proved them wrong" BY THE HOLY SCRIPTURES?

How silly of me, I forgot. They killed him, and tried to kill Paul.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I wonder if that is what the Pharisees said to the Lord and Paul AFTER they had "proved them wrong" BY THE HOLY SCRIPTURES?

How silly of me, I forgot. They killed him, and tried to kill Paul.

Mr. Denson,

“You are not worth the trouble of conversion.”

--Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

[carlaimpinge]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I wonder if that is what the Pharisees said to the Lord and Paul AFTER they had "proved them wrong" BY THE HOLY SCRIPTURES?

How silly of me, I forgot. They killed him, and tried to kill Paul.

Mr. Denson,

“You are not worth the trouble of conversion.”

--Charles Haddon Spurgeon

</font>[/QUOTE]And the wild asses still bray vanity.

Job 11:12 For vain man would be wise, though man be born like a wild ass's colt.

 

[HankD]

My opinion:

Repentance is not a work although humanly speaking it seems a self initiated act of the will, it is passive, it is given to an individual:

2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Repentance (Strong's 3341: metanoia, a change of mind, a new mind) is a part of the new birth but not all inclusive.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Repentance is not the infallible test of NT salvation but the new birth. The scope of repentance is too small. Mormons (for instance) insist upon and look for "repentance".

We cannot know all the details of the how, when and where of the new birth but we can see it's effect on the individual.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The Book of 1 John details those effects evoked in one born of the Spirit.


HankD

 

[Craigbythesea]

HankD wrote,

My opinion:

Repentance is not a work although humanly speaking it seems a self initiated act of the will, it is passive, it is given to an individual:

2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Hank,

Thank you for your well thought-out reply. I believe that it is explicitly clear in the New Testament that repentance is not viewed as a work of the Law, so whether or not it is or is not a work of righteousness is irrelevant since James makes it very clear that works of righteousness are a requirement for salvation.

Regarding your point that repentance is given to us, I believe that it would be more accurate to say that the ability to repent is given to us, and that we choose whether or not to take advantage of that ability. Mark 1:15 and Acts 2:38 we find the Greek imperative verb for “repent” which tells us that repentance involves volition on our part.

Mark 1: 14. Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
15. and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Acts 2:38. Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 20:21 we find Paul “solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Acts 20:18. And when they had come to him, he said to them, "You yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, how I was with you the whole time,
19. serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials which came upon me through the plots of the Jews;
20. how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house,
21. solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

In Greek, the word for “faith” is the cognate noun of the verb for “believe,” and we find this verb in many places in the Greek New Testament in the imperative mood which tells us that faith also involves volition on our part.

(All Scriptures NASB, 1995)

 

[HankD]

OK Craig, we could pull out verses, each emphasing the sovereignty of God or the responsibility of man.

I don't know how to reconcile these two entities (granted, some sincerely believe they can, and indeed perhaps they can), so I come down on the side of God's Sovereignty.

I would still maintain that the new birth totally eclipses repentance.

James makes it very clear that works of righteousness are a requirement for salvation.

This statement is not exactly a focused statement IMO. Rather works of righteousness are the normal and expected outcome of faith.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As for James:

James 2:14
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

He asks a very similar question as does the Apostle John:

1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

If an individual who claims to be born from above having God as his father and appears not to have the love of God dwelling in him (for God is love) who produces the good works, and that one has no compassion for humanity or given the opportunity does not do those things which please the Father, (those good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them), then we do indeed have the right to question whether there was the new birth in the first place.

But to say "that works of righteousness are a requirement for salvation", is an improper focus IMO. The focus of the good works is upon God Himself according to Ephesians 2:9. In us, working through us, to do His good will.

If however we look to our own strength, and do fleshy dead works, then we will sense our failure and become self-condemning and not have that blessed assurance of life eternal, we will doubt our sonship, and we will be ashamed when we see Him coming in Glory (yet we will be saved, but so as by fire).

1 John 3
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith...

HankD

 

[Craigbythesea]

HankD wrote,

I don't know how to reconcile these two entities (granted, some sincerely believe they can, and indeed perhaps they can), so I come down on the side of God's Sovereignty.

Thank you for your excellent post from which I have taken this present quote. I guess that I would say that I come down on the side of free will, but not exclusively. Paul was clearly chosen by God for his role in the early development of the New Testament Church and New Testament doctrine, and Paul suggests in his Epistle to the Galatians that he had some awareness of this,

Gal. 1:15. But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
16. to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
17. nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.

But at the same time I see a very human element in the above testimony. And of course in writing to the Church in Corinth Paul expressed his awareness that his own calling was conditional upon his own personal response to that call,

1 Cor. 9:25. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self- control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

If an individual who claims to be born from above having God as his father and appears not to have the love of God dwelling in him (for God is love) who produces the good works, and that one has no compassion for humanity or given the opportunity does not do those things which please the Father, (those good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them), then we do indeed have the right to question whether there was the new birth in the first place.

I agree with you here.

But to say "that works of righteousness are a requirement for salvation", is an improper focus IMO. The focus of the good works is upon God Himself according to Ephesians 2:9. In us, working through us, to do His good will.

In James, the focus of the good works is clearly upon the man rather than upon God. In Paul’s writings, however, the focus is clearly upon God working in the lives of men. Paul’s experience with the Judaizing Christians clearly caused Paul to have this focus. However, when we carefully consider the cause of the focus we can clearly see that when Paul spoke of works he was speaking of works of the Law, a very different kind of works than James was speaking of.

If however we look to our own strength, and do fleshy dead works, then we will sense our failure and become self-condemning and not have that blessed assurance of life eternal, we will doubt our sonship, and we will be ashamed when we see Him coming in Glory (yet we will be saved, but so as by fire).

If we look to our own strength rather than to what God has done for us in Christ and is doing for us through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, we are in danger of becoming shipwrecked and losing everything.

 

[HankD]

If we look to our own strength rather than to what God has done for us in Christ and is doing for us through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, we are in danger of becoming shipwrecked and losing everything.

I'll agree with the shipwrecked part brother.

Matthew 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

HankD

 

[Craigbythesea]

I'll agree with the shipwrecked part brother.

Matthew 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

When Jesus finds that wayward Christian who has become shipwrecked, he throws out to him a life preserver attached to a life-line. If that wayward Christian takes hold of the life preserver and climbs into it, Jesus will always pull him back to safety. If, however, that wayward Christians should say, “No, thank you!” and swims away from that life preserver, he will find that he has swam into the arms of Satan and his host, and he shall spend eternity with them.

God, by His sovereign plan and design, gave man a free will, and even a two-year-old can resist the will of God—and does so every time he throws a temper tantrum. And when a man receives into his heart the gospel of the kingdom of God and is born-again, he retains that free will—it is not taken away from him—and he has the choice, every day and every hour to say yes to God or no to God. There are no chains or shackles in the kingdom of God, and there are no locked doors. A Christian has been set free from the bondage of sin and has a free choice to say yes or no to God. If he should choose to present himself afresh to Satan, he shall once again become his slave resulting in death rather than eternal life.

Rom. 6:14. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16. Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? (JNASB, 1995)

 

[Craigbythesea]

1 Cor. 10:1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
(NASB, 1995)

 

[Ed Edwards]

I haven't seen a scripture yet that
says "conditional salvation". I haven't seen
a post yet that defines "conditional salvation".
This leads me to believe largely that
nobody knows what they are talking about.
And nobody could pick the right scripture
for the matter without the leadership of God.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Without love of God and love of our fellow man there is no relationship with God and no salvation.


1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

 

[steaver]

My first response to you, bmerr, is that since you are COC, is to refrain from bosting in Baptist Only forums and post only in those areas which are designated for non-baptists.

I must apologize as well. I never noticed that this section said Baptist Only. Sorry, my ignorance. I am not a Baptist.

God Bless!

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by steaver:
Hi Craig,

I would also be interested in your answers to ifb's questions if you get the time.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 1. Are you saying we MUST stop sinning(become sinlessly perfect) to be saved from the fires of hell?

But then you never answered the followup questions:

2. If you answered No to the first question, must we become almost sinlessly perfect in order to escape the fires of hell? (Yes or No, then you can elaborate)


3. How much sin will God allow in our lives as Christians for us to enter heaven?


4. Do we receive the inputed rightousness of Christ at the momment of our salvation, or is it only after we live a good enough life(almost perfect), that we then receive the inputed perfect righteousness of Christ necessary for salvation?


5. Are you saying by this statement - "Simply having faith and repenting of the worst of our sins in NOT enough to save us" that you do not believe salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone? (Yes or No then you can elaborate)

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]The test of any belief is to be able answer practical questions about it - Craig fails to do this time and time again.

Craig could answer these questions if he would just come out and say what he believes and this that salvation only starts with Christ's death on the cross , but is kept and finished by our good works.

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
My Bible says that it is whether or not “you continue in the faith.” Where in your Bible does it say that continuing in sin is continuing in the faith?

The Bible does not say continuing in sin is continuing in faith, but it also does not say if one struggles with sin he is not continuing in the faith:

"1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;"
1 John 2:1

The Bible commands us to rid sin from our lives, but in the same breath it acknowledges the reality of sin in the life of a believer and says we have an adovocate with God the Father - who is Jesus Christ.

Where in the scriptures does it say we must become sinlessly perfect in these sin-cursed bodies after we have believed on Christ in order to be finally saved?

Where in the scriptures does it say in order for God to credit the perfect righteousness of Christ to our account we must become sinless after we trust in Christ?

The last time I checked my Bible, the perfect righteousness of Christ was credit on the basis of faith and belief, not on the basis of works:

" 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

4Now to the one who (D)works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
Romans 4:2-8

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I don't pray that God will save you, because I believe you are saved, but I pray that God will give you the real assurance of your salvation you seem to lack.

Dear friend,

“Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." “You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”


James 2:17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, {being} by itself.
18. But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26. For just as the body without {the} spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
(NASB, 1995)

</font>[/QUOTE]Where does James say his asurrance of salvation rests on his works?

James is simply saying a true faith will exhibit works - a point all Christians will agree on. If there are NO fruits(works) produced, then it is a dead faith.

Thats not what I asked, I asked what the assurance of your salvation was?

How much sin would cause you to loose your assurance?

I would agree that if there are no works, as James argues here, then there is no real faith, but if there are some then what?

5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:5-7

----------

5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Romans 11:5-6

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Simply having faith and repenting of the worst of our sins in NOT enough to save us. We MUST die to sin if we wish to be saved from the fires of hell.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Craigbythesea,

I think this is the most direct and concise statement I have heard from you on this board as to what you believe about salvation.

So in keeping with your direct statement, would you care to elaborate on your statement, and specifically your phrase "MUST die to sin":

Throughout Paul’s Epistles we find him making a distinction between the covenant of Law and the covenant of grace. He makes the point in many places, especially in his Epistle to the Romans, that no man can be saved under the covenant of Law, and that keeping the Law of Moses is NOT necessary for salvation. But no where does Paul suggest that obeying Christ and His commandments is not absolutely necessary for salvation. Indeed, Paul went so far as to write that those who have been saved have “died to sin,” having “been baptized into Christ Jesus” and “baptized into His death.” And he does not stop there! He writes, “if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.” Dying to sin is a requirement for our resurrection, and therefore dying to sin is a requirement for our salvation. Simply having faith and repenting of the worst of our sins in NOT enough to save us. We MUST die to sin if we wish to be saved from the fires of hell.

If this is still not clear to you, Paul wrote that there is a CONDITION required to be met for our resurrection. It is necessary that we have, in this present life, become united with Christ in the likeness of His death. And since this condition must be met for our resurrection, it most obviously must be met for us to be saved. (If a Christian misses out on the resurrection, how saved is he?).

1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13. and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

</font>[/QUOTE]Craig,

This is absolutely clear, Paul speaks past tense of to these believers that they have died to sin - "we have been buried with Him through baptism into death" -past tense, - "our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with" all this is spoken of these Christians and Paul in the past tense.

Then to these same Christians who have been buried and had their old selfs crucified in Christ as Paul acknowledges here as a past tense event - then he tells them to

"11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13. and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

So you are dead, now consider yourself dead? If you understand positional sanctification verse practical sanctification this passage makes perfect sense. If you deny the distinction between inputed righteousness and practical righteousness you will be dancing around this passage all day long.

So according to this passage when did the believers die to sin, was it before they were exhorted to live as those dead to sin or after?

IFBReformer

 

[HankD]

When Jesus finds that wayward Christian who has become shipwrecked, he throws out to him a life preserver attached to a life-line.

Chapter and verse?

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

HankD