Confess and Believe

[Reformed1689]

Ok,

But would have much rather you brought your own language work to show the error I made.

That would require an ability to do so.

 

[InTheLight]

Ok,

But would have much rather you brought your own language work to show the error I made.

Just read the verse as translated by professional Bible translators.

[ESV] because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

[KJV] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[NIV] If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

[NASB] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Still, your rearrangement of the verse and addition of words is OK because it does not show that belief is the result of salvation.

Also, I noticed that no one has addressed the six verses I provided that shows we are saved because we believe. We don't believe because we are saved.

 

[MB]

MB, would you kindly restate this. I have trouble following your thought line.

You say, “No man in his natural state is corrupt”. But then say “.in fact his flesh is still corrupt after Salvation”

Seems contradictory which is why I ask for clarification. I think I overlooked the missing coma and doing so lost your meaning.

What do you consider is the condition of Adam as he was dismissed from Eden?

Was he a fully and completely unrighteousness man unacceptable to regain what was discarded?

Is there any part of unregenerate man that escapes condemnation (condemned already)?

Did Adam seek restoration, or did he hide from God and blame others?

Who sought out the other in Eden?

The Adam of Eden who is the only one who regularly took an evening stroll in face to face sharing surely had something of worthiness, when dismissed from Eden. In what capacity did he not loose every privilege of Devine fellowship outside of first offering blood sacrifice?

What I meant to say is that man is corrupt. In fact man's flesh is still corrupt even after Salvation. Adam's sin is not inherited by man. We are not guilty of his sin. Yes we all die because we were not born with eternal life, neither was Adam created with it. All men are totally unrighteous before Salvation and there is nothing in scripture that says because of Adam's sin we all have this inability to respond to the gospel or seek God.
MB.

 

[InTheLight]

That would require an ability to do so.

#5

 

[1689Dave]

Scripture clearly says we are saved BECAUSE we believe.

John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

It goes back to my post. You think God saved you because you chose to believe. So you read the bible that way.

 

[InTheLight]

It goes back to my post. You think God saved you because you chose to believe. So you read the bible that way.

No, I read the Bible for what it says. The verses I quoted are all basically If-Then statements. IF you believe, THEN you are saved. You're flipping it over backwards and trying to make it read IF you are saved, THEN you believe. The Bible clearly doesn't say it the way you want it to say it.

 

[1689Dave]

No, I read the Bible for what it says. The verses I quoted are all basically If-Then statements. IF you believe, THEN you are saved. You're flipping it over backwards and trying to make it read IF you are saved, THEN you believe. The Bible clearly doesn't say it the way you want it to say it.

You read "Characteristics" of the saved as "Conditions" the unsaved must meet to be saved.

 

[Revmitchell]

Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved? How we answer this question will influence how we read scripture in matters of salvation.

If we believe because we are saved, we will confess faith because we are saved.

If we are saved because we believe, we will confess faith as a means of being saved.

I am saved because of what Jesus did. I believe because I heard the gospel. Once I believed then I was saved as a required by God response to His free offer of salvation.

 

[InTheLight]

You read "Characteristics" of the saved as "Conditions" the unsaved must meet to be saved.

#4

 

[1689Dave]

#4

But if faith is a condition for salvation, the gospel becomes law and grace becomes works.

 

[Revmitchell]

But if faith is a condition for salvation, the gospel becomes law and grace becomes works.

God decided who He would save. That is those who would believe. The only condition for salvation is the finished work of the cross. Do not conflate mans' choice to believe with God's choice to save. The merit for our salvation belongs to God alone regardless of what response God requires of man prior to salvation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not so my friend those verses say absolutely nothing about an inability or fall.
MB

So spiritual death, and an inability....cannot understand, cannot come...say nothing about the effects of the fall?

 

[1689Dave]

God decided who He would save. That is those who would believe. The only condition for salvation is the finished work of the cross. Do not conflate mans' choice to believe with God's choice to save. The merit for our salvation belongs to God alone regardless of what response God requires of man prior to salvation.

But this version makes man the savior in the end based on his response.

 

[Reformed1689]

#5

Doesn't apply. We weren't talking about the Doctrines of Grace. Just your language abilities.

 

[MB]

So spiritual death, and an inability....cannot understand, cannot come...say nothing about the effects of the fall?

The flesh cannot live with out the spirit. So the spirit cannot be dead if we are still alive. Paul speaks metaphorically about his spirit being dead. There is no regeneration with out faith first. Man is able to understand the gospel message and come to faith and believe. I did ,so can you and everyone else.

Calvinist call me an easy believer when it is the Calvinist who claim they don't even have to believe. Believing is not a work.
Let me ask you this. If God just saves us with out faith then why your concern that I do not accept your doctrine as truth/
MB

 

[MB]

You read "Characteristics" of the saved as "Conditions" the unsaved must meet to be saved.

If you believe you are saved with out faith then why your concern when you meet others who do not accept your point of view?
MB

 

[MB]

This is a bold faced lie. What Calvinist here has told you that you do not have to believe? Nobody.

All of them claim Belief comes after Salvation. By the way I am not a Liar.
MB

 

[MB]

But if faith is a condition for salvation, the gospel becomes law and grace becomes works.

No it doesn't. The only one with grace is God. No matter where you go there is a path we must follow. Which is why Christ told us to pick up our cross and follow Him. We can't follow Christ with out taking the same path He took. He took the path to please the Father. What makes you think it's any different for you?
MB

 

[Van]

Agreed. The Fall affected all human faculties, including the ability to obey God by faith. I have quoted these passages ad infinitum, ad nauseam; Romans 3; 8:7; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13 that make it clear sinners are not sick in their trespasses and sins, they are dead (nekros). Sinners are incapable of any positive action towards God unless the Holy Spirit makes them capable. Of course, this takes us away from the OP and the proper understanding of Romans 10:9-10.

And the rebuttal has been posted ad infinitum and ad nauseam!

Romans 3:11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God;

Here the idea that this condition applies to the lost at all times is added to the text to supply the support for total spiritual inability. However, if this condition applies when a person is sinning, and is quoted to demonstrate we all sin, then the verse (and passage) does not support the mistaken doctrine.

Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Here the idea that this condition applies to the lost at all times is added to the text to supply the support for total spiritual inability. However, if this condition applies when a person has his mind set on fleshly desires, then when a lost person sets his mind on some spiritual things, they would then not be hostile toward God, but rather open and receptive to God. This capacity is demonstrated by Matthew 23:13 where lost men are in the process of entering the kingdom.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Here the idea that this condition applies to all of the things of the Spirit of God is added to the text to supply the support for total spiritual inability. However, if the condition applies to only some of the things of the Spirit, the solid food which must be spiritually appraised, then the spiritual milk (1 Corinthians 3:1) can be understood by “men of flesh.”

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Here the idea that this condition (spiritually dead, separated from God) results in total spiritual inability is added by the redefinition of dead. However, if in this condition, the spiritually dead have the ability to understand the milk of the gospel (as taught by 1 Corinthians 3:1) then this verse provides no support.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Here the idea is that this “(being spiritually dead ) condition results in total spiritual inability is simply repeating the redefinition of “spiritually dead” to include “total spiritual inability. . However, if in this condition, the spiritually dead have the ability to understand the milk of the gospel (as taught by 1 Corinthians 3:1) then this verse provides no support.

 

[MB]

The basic problem with this view is that it presents faith of humans as an attribute that was not corrupted by the fall, and sin.

To accept that human faith was in fact part of the fallen and incapable of righteous response, an alternative was necessary.

That lead to the invention of prevenient/preceding grace.

Not a single verse in the Scriptures support this human construct. To avoid the truth of Scriptures, people will invent and believe whatever supports their thinking especially when the it involves the matters concerning the eternity’s estate.

What you've said here, describes what I believe you do. You actually see things in scripture that aren't there. Adam did not fall because he wasn't on a pedestal to begin with.. He sinned true. But we did not inherit his sin nor did we commit sin with him. The fall of Adam a Calvinist invention. The inability of man another invention of Calvinism. Spiritual death is yet another since the spirit bad or good lives forever in Heaven or hell. All of the tulip was invented and none of it is in scripture.
MB