Confess and Believe

[Iconoclast]

"MB,

The flesh cannot live with out the spirit. So the spirit cannot be dead if we are still alive.

This is a total misunderstanding of Genesis 1-3. Explain what you think took place?
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

He ate....What died MB? He was physically alive, so what died?

 

[MB]

"MB,



This is a total misunderstanding of Genesis 1-3. Explain what you think took place?
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

He ate....What died MB? He was physically alive, so what died?

Nothing ! No where does scripture say that Adam died spiritually. No where does it say he fell. What was he on that he could have fell from? Adam falling is simply not scriptural.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Nothing ! No where does scripture say that Adam died spiritually. No where does it say he fell. What was he on that he could have fell from? Adam falling is simply not scriptural.
MB

So in your world there is no such thing as spiritual death???

 

[Revmitchell]

But this version makes man the savior in the end based on his response.

No it doesn't

 

[Reformed]

All of them claim Belief comes after Salvation. By the way I am not a Liar.
MB

In the Reformed Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation) "salvation" is in the name. It is not a component part. It is repentance that precedes faith, not "salvation". The Reformed Ordo Salutis is:

1. Election/Predestination
2. Atonement
3. Gospel Call
4. Inward (Effectual) Call
5. Regeneration
6. Faith and Repentance (Conversion)
7. Justification
8. Sanctification
9. Glorification

 

[Reformed]

In post #5 of this thread, I explained the effect of the Fall on human faculties. I am restating this because there are certain posters who are making charges that there is no biblical support for total depravity and total inability. It is OK to disagree with the case I made in post #5 but it is not OK to make baseless charges.

 

[Jerome]

The Reformed Ordo Salutis is:
1. Election/Predestination
2. Atonement
3. Gospel Call
4. Inward (Effectual) Call
5. Regeneration
6. Faith and Repentance (Conversion)
7. Justification
8. Sanctification
9. Glorification

Oops:

John Calvin, Commentary on Jn 8:32

"when the Lord regenerates us by his Spirit, he likewise makes us free, so that, loosed from the snares of Satan, we willingly obey righteousness. But regeneration proceeds from faith"

John Calvin, Commentary on Rom 4:16:

"Here, in the first place, the Apostle shows, that nothing is set before faith but mere grace;...Hence, also, we may easily learn, that grace is not to be taken, as some imagine, for the gift of regeneration,"

 

[Reformed]

Well, the OP says it is Jews.
You are saying it is the Gentile believers at Rome.

So, there is a problem.

This is known as the Calvinist faulty argument #3. And I think it is hilarious that two Calvinists can't agree on to whom the verses were written. You're contradicting each other trying to prove Calvinism.

#3. THAT VERSE WAS NOT WRITTEN TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE CLAIMING

First, I am not trying to prove Calvinism. I started this thread because of what I read on another thread about Romans 10:9-10. This is why I started this thread in the Baptist Theology & Bible Study forum. Others have put this thread in a C&A trajectory.

Second, I specifically wrote in the OP, "Paul is writing about the Jews." The Book of Romans is written, "to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints" (Romans 1:7). Romans is written to the church in Rome which was a mixture of Gentile and Jewish believers (of course, in Christ, there is no such bifurcation, Romans 10:12; Galatians 3:28). While the Book of Romans is written to the church at Rome, Paul was writing about unbelieving Jews in much of chapter 10. So, if you ask me who the Book of Romans is written to, my answer is the church in Rome. If you ask me who Paul was writing about in most of chapter 10, it is the Jews. Actually, I think I was quite clear in my OP, so I am surprised there is this much confusion.

 

[Reynolds]

Just read the verse as translated by professional Bible translators.

[ESV] because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

[KJV] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[NIV] If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

[NASB] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Still, your rearrangement of the verse and addition of words is OK because it does not show that belief is the result of salvation.

Also, I noticed that no one has addressed the six verses I provided that shows we are saved because we believe. We don't believe because we are saved.

Ah, but none of those professional translators understand Greek like the Calvinist with a couple introduction courses in it.

 

[Reynolds]

But if faith is a condition for salvation, the gospel becomes law and grace becomes works.

only to a Calvinist.

 

[Reynolds]

Oops:

John Calvin, Commentary on Jn 8:32

"when the Lord regenerates us by his Spirit, he likewise makes us free, so that, loosed from the snares of Satan, we willingly obey righteousness. But regeneration proceeds from faith"

John Calvin, Commentary on Rom 4:16:

"Here, in the first place, the Apostle shows, that nothing is set before faith but mere grace;...Hence, also, we may easily learn, that grace is not to be taken, as some imagine, for the gift of regeneration,"

Ah, what does Calvin know about Calvinism??

 

[Van]

In post #5 of this thread, I explained the effect of the Fall on human faculties. I am restating this because there are certain posters who are making charges that there is no biblical support for total depravity and total inability. It is OK to disagree with the case I made in post #5 but it is not OK to make baseless charges.

Post # 59 presented the rebuttal for the false claims made in post #5. There is no biblical support for "total spiritual inability." This was the "charge" made in post #59, with no mention of "total depravity" or "total inability." The only way to demonstrate there is support for "total spiritual inability" would be to provide a verse that has not be altered through interpretation. Finding fault with "certain posters" rather than providing an argument in support of the bogus doctrine is simply the logical fallacy of an"against the man" argument. The reason logical fallacies are used probably rests in the lack of actual support. It certainly was the case as shown in post #59, located near the bottom of page 3.

 

[agedman]

I am saved because of what Jesus did. I believe because I heard the gospel. Once I believed then I was saved as a required by God response to His free offer of salvation.

How then was such not performed as a work in order to receive?

Does not the addict remain controlled by addiction unless there is a core change that compels them to a new standard first? Or do they first compelled themselves to that new standard in some measure of self help and more often fail over again?

Doesn’t 2 Corinthians state:

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
​

Is it not seen that ones respond by acknowledging God’s work of salvation demonstrates an already established changing of the heart? Is that not true repentance and confession is all about?

Does not the Scripture present salvation in all three time tenses of past present future?

The Lilly does not toil for beauty, it has that nature. The believer confesses and believes, because it is their new nature?

 

[agedman]

What I meant to say is that man is corrupt. In fact man's flesh is still corrupt even after Salvation. Adam's sin is not inherited by man. We are not guilty of his sin. Yes we all die because we were not born with eternal life, neither was Adam created with it. All men are totally unrighteous before Salvation and there is nothing in scripture that says because of Adam's sin we all have this inability to respond to the gospel or seek God.
MB.

I disagree that Adam was not born with eternal life. But that discussion is for another sin.

The Scriptures teach all have sinned, therefore all die. Why one sins is also fore another thread.

One has no ability because the Scripture states, all come short of meeting God’s standard, that includes human faith.

 

[agedman]

The flesh cannot live with out the spirit. So the spirit cannot be dead if we are still alive. Paul speaks metaphorically about his spirit being dead. There is no regeneration with out faith first. Man is able to understand the gospel message and come to faith and believe. I did ,so can you and everyone else.

Calvinist call me an easy believer when it is the Calvinist who claim they don't even have to believe. Believing is not a work.
Let me ask you this. If God just saves us with out faith then why your concern that I do not accept your doctrine as truth/
MB

Do you not remember the souls in eternal condemnation are forever alive?

Some believe in annihilation, but that is heresy. You do not.

 

[agedman]

All of them claim Belief comes after Salvation. By the way I am not a Liar.
MB

But not a single one has said one does not have to believe, have they?

 

[agedman]

What you've said here, describes what I believe you do. You actually see things in scripture that aren't there. Adam did not fall because he wasn't on a pedestal to begin with.. He sinned true. But we did not inherit his sin nor did we commit sin with him. The fall of Adam a Calvinist invention. The inability of man another invention of Calvinism. Spiritual death is yet another since the spirit bad or good lives forever in Heaven or hell. All of the tulip was invented and none of it is in scripture.
MB

Then why do non-calvinists teach the same things.

By acknowledging man’s innate inability they invented a scheme not found in the Scriptures they call prevenient or preceding grace.

They refer to the sin of Adam as his fall.

They teach that because Adam sinned, it is the condition of all, for all have sinned.

MB, you are denying some of the very teaching non-Calvinistic thinkers teach from pulpits every Sunday.

Are you denying that souls either reside in heaven or the second death forever?

 

[1689Dave]

only to a Calvinist.

It has all the characteristic of law when you replace grace with works.

 

[1689Dave]

No it doesn't

If you determine your salvation by complying with the alleged demands, how can you not be the savior?

 

[1689Dave]

No it doesn't. The only one with grace is God. No matter where you go there is a path we must follow. Which is why Christ told us to pick up our cross and follow Him. We can't follow Christ with out taking the same path He took. He took the path to please the Father. What makes you think it's any different for you?
MB

If you are starving and dehydrated, and someone throws a meal ticket at your feet, you are he one who saves your life by picking it up and using it.