Confessions of a Former Worship Leader

No, I am not conceding that the Bible addresses styles of music. Sorry for the confusion.

 

So there is no distinction between psalms, hymns and spiritual songs whatsoever?

 

Forget style for a few moments.
Worship service could be ALL ABOUT worshiping God.

Most of what we see today is ways to make worship more like the world....or easy for us.

When you make you choice of music, are you thinking about what makes you happy and what you like the most...or the sounds you like?
Or do you think of the BEST way I can to worship God?

Are some ways better to honor and worship God?
If so, do you want to bring your "A game" to the Lord...or something that will just do.

When picking a style of music...do you want your style so that it sounds like the world so as to blind into the world?...or do you pick so that it sounds like what the WORLD thinks sounds churchy?

The Bible says the world will hate us. When USA today says..they like the new music in church...that is not hating us. They hate us for we are not like them. We stand out....a light in a dark world

its not the style...its your focus.

if you look at the world and try and change to copy the world.......guess what...
YOU WILL BECOME LIKE THE WORLD.

2 paths are on the shelf..chose you God or chose you self?

Self is a focus on the world. Getting things..for me.
Lot did this in the OT..and move closer to the world. The YMCA did this...now look at them.


Gods way is AWAY from the world. Do we need to reach out to the world? YES. but we do not have to change to be like them.

forget style...leave style at home. worship God and take your A game


In Christ...James

 

James...how would you describe the music in a church that adopted the attitude you espoused above? Try to be specific in every way possible. (I don't mean that to be too tall an order, I just want to understand what you picture this music sounding like operating within the godly model you proposed...)

 

Travel...I am seeking to strike a distinction between the lyric content of the Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual songs from the vague, fuzzy paradigm of "style." That's all I mean. This will also explain why I don't respond to Aaron about the style question. I separate style from the core lyric content that Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs delineates...Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs has absolutely nothing to do with style--they are merely lyrical delineations/distinctions...style predominantly deals with the musical vehicle on which the lyrics travel--NOT the intent of the listing in Eph. 5

 

Daniel Thanks for your reply.

I am not here to tell anyone what to do. Standards should be set with God in mind and it is as personal as your salvation. What i would like you to consider is why you choose what you choose. In the end you may still have the same music as before. But what drives you is more importain than the product. In other words, some may want to keep the old songs very the same bad reasons as some that want to change. Can i post you a few old post of mine? below you will see my views in more detail.


****************************************** this is on if a church should have drums.

This new found Church growth movement is not new at all. The “Lets be a little like the world and we can bring in the lost”….is not a new thought. It didn’t work in the past….and it will not work this time. Oh it will work for a few years and then the Church will be closed, or so far left of center they should close.

Every time the Church takes it’s eyes off God and places its eyes on this world that is when the Church falls. The story of Peter walking on the water is in the Bible for this very reason. When Peter looked away from Christ he fell. Paul had many messages in living in the world…but being a light in the world. A light shines and stands out.

When you have time read what many Baptist wrote about what caused the “down slide” of the Puritans. In short, it was when they started looking at man, and not God. The YMCA was changed to pull in the unsaved. The plan was after they got the unsaved in the building, they would preach to them. Did it work? For a few years it worked and then there were more from the world at the Y then believers. The same will happen to the Church in this age. When is the last time you went to a Bible study at the Y? Worship is about GOD!! We should try to please GOD in worship not try to please the world to bring them in. It’s ALL about God.

It’s now to the point you don’t need your Bible in some churches, nor your songbook. Everything is on the big screen making it nice and easy for us. As said before, some do not play live music, but listen to recordings. This makes things easy for the Music man of the Church. If you have a golf game to play on Sunday…hey..Go for it. You can always download the message from the internet and listen to it later. Forget taping the super Bowl to see it after church, tape the pastor and watch the super bowl.

All of this easy worship is for us not God. But is it really worship if all we think about is how to make it easy for us or others? We should not be thinking of how to make it easy on us or more like the world, but rather how can I do this the best for my God and how can I do it more Godly. Can we not give Him our ALL? Can we not take sometime and go to Church? Can we not carry our Bibles? Can we not take the time and play live music to our GOD? Is He not worth it? Can we not keep the worlds sound in music out of Church?

Worship is ALL about God…get over yourself and worship Him.
In Christ….James

**************************** part 2..follow up

I said...{{The same will happen to the Church in this age.}}

I was not very clear. Maybe it would be better said….
Any church that looks at the world and changes to be as the world will become just like the world. In this will be the down-slide.

This would include Baptist.

The simple deed of placing a good label on a Church building does not make that church a good Church. What is more important then a Church body calling itself Baptist is that each believer of that church holds to Baptist doctrine. This sounds silly to say, but many churches that have the name Baptist no longer hold to this doctrine but as Lot did in the OT, looking at the world and he wanted to be close to the world. So what did Lot do? He moved a little closer.

I feel I must address the subject of this forum “musical instruments in the church”, to keep with the rules of the forum of staying on the subject.

I agree with Pastor Larry when he stated…
“It has to do with the way they are played, not with the drums themselves. And that is the issue with all musical instruments.”

A drum is nothing until the drummer plays it. For the most part, what comes from the drum comes from the heart of the drummer.

I am an artist. I have been for 35+ years. I can see a person’s heart or what is on his mind by the art he or she draws. Listen, I did not say I could tell if he is saved. God only knows that. But I can tell where his mind is when the art was being formed. I have to hire artist from time to time I can’t always tell with just seeing one work. But if I see all or most of his work you will see moods and over all, his heart.
If he is mad as he draws it will show in his drawing. One “mad looking” drawing is not bad. We all have anger to deal with. But if all I see is he being mad in his work, there is bad bitterness in his life that he needs to deal with.

If he views life as unfair, you will see that in his drawing. If he lives in the world of rock music, it sticks out, it’s very easy to see. I see this rock art more and more today. If his heart is on things of this world it shows. If he likes fast cars, you will see fast cars in some of his work.
You do not have to be an artist to see this. Go to some ones house and look what hangs on the wall. If they like horse racing you’ll see horse racing. If it’s football that gets them going, you’ll see football in the house.

Art is an expression of your heart. Music is like that also. I have seen people sing in Church that was not singing to God, but rather singing as they heard the song sang by some pop star. What did I get from the song? The message to me was that they loved that pop star. Did they also love God? I have no idea. But it did not come across as if they did. Or at least the pop star was placed above God. So what does this have to do with drums in church? Let me ask you…why have drums? The way you answer this shows where your heart is.

Are drums-sets of the devil? Is an electric guitar just sin in waiting? NO!!

Are they worldly as someone asked? Well…they could be…but not in and of themselves.

What the user does with these musical instruments is the issue. If you are just following the world it will show in your songs and music. If you just want the worlds beat, the world may like it, but does God? The big screen I wrote about, it’s not bad in and of itself. But if it leads to dead believers going to a hip church, that will not even open the Word Of God, what is this telling God about our love for Him?
There may be a place for drums in your church, but do not place them there for the wrong reasons. And whatever you do, make sure your goal is not to be like the world, but rather more like Christ.


*******************************
Now to standards

Lets look at beer and drinking as how we can set standards.

what is worldly? Worldly is NOT just sinning. Worldly is following the world...or WANTING the world

wanting things...and not giving to God
wanting to copy...just like the world...only its to God
wanting not to stick out.....but blind in with the world.

worldly is a focus on self

stepping OVER that line moves the worldlyness in the highest level...SIN

no matter your thoughts on beer..at some point you have a line you draw. Worldly is taking your will to the line..and not crossing.

Still..it's your will..you have that right....you are free to do this. The NT is not under the LAW....we are under grace to choose....so that EVERYTHING is lawful. I agree 100%.

Standards are set for many reasons. liberties are as personal as salvation itself. I can not save you. You have a personal relationship with God. liberties are to be this way too...personal relationship with God.

I can not set your standards for you, and you can not set them for me. But we should have standards in our life.

There are a few ways to set standards. One is to look at sins which we would never do and set them this way. This way we use our freedom from the law to go to the full length of liberty and stop before crossing into sin. All area between doing NOTHING... to the point of sin is fair ground. I’ll call this SIN LOCATION STANDARDS


Another way to look at setting standards is is giving up freedoms. In this case we start in the same way as the SIN LOCATION STANDARDS for we really do have full liberty in Christ.

We then ask things like this. I belong to Christ so what will i give up to serve Him? On this question we can give-up things that are bad for our witness.

Now how to apply this ......
Can i have a beer?...yes I have freedom to do so.
but i will not ...for i give it up beer for others look at this in a bad light ...and I do not want to bring bad light to Him.

I stick with the no drinking of any beer as the point. But..whereever you place this wall is up to you and God.

You may place it at...”as long as i do not get drunk”..point.

Again..that is up to you and your Lord. But the point is..the focus is not GETTING ALL YOUR FREEDOMS....but giving up your freedoms for Him.

Taking this to the church...if in order for me to belong to a local church, i need to GIVE-UP...my freedoms then i will. All organizations have rules. This is in no way the same as being a better Christian.
In other word...if i go to a school and they say...
"You must put a rock on your head anytime you walk to the cafe”...then in order for you to go to school there you must go by the rules. If this is a Christian school..they too have rules. if they have the same rule we must follow it too. We give-up our freedoms to go to school there.

Now...if this Christian school says this...
You must put a rock on your head anytime you walk to the cafe in order for you to be a better Christian” that is wrong.


Rules have nothing to do with your personal relationship with God. We live in grace. following rules does have a lot to do with our relationship with God.. If i decide that this school is still worth going to...even though they go to far in the rules...i still must go by their rules and not cry for my freedoms. Its about what freedoms i will give-up.

In the SIN LOCATION STANDARDS...you care for your freedoms..and so look for self. In the WHAT CAN I GIVE-UP STANDARDS...you look at God and your witness.

life always comes back to this very thing. only 2 choices on the self....chose you God..or chose you self?

so...back to the Church....many follow the world...looking..wanting...for SELF.
Worship should be about...GOD

I can not tell you how to pick your music...unless you want my input. even after getting my input it is still up to you.

All i preach is this....Do it for the right reasons. Do it as to God.


In Christ...James

 

BTW...this is the wrong way to pick standards too. If this is the ONLY reason you have standards is because someone else says it in a book...that is just as wrong. You can use others to get insight. But in the end it should be your OWN heart as the Holy Spirit works in your understand. If however you agree 100% with these guys....then go for it.


In Christ..James

 

Thank you, James. I can clearly see your argument for the right heart motives in what you do.

I see the focus of worship being truly toward God and not our selfish self-centeredness.

I understand and believe that art (music, in this case) is a reflection of what's in the heart .

I grasp your sin location standards illustrations.

I like your "choose you God or choose you self" mantra in most of your posts.

My point of struggle is how to persuade the CCM users and the non-CCM users to avoid dogmatism where there is no scriptural dogmatism, particularly in this area of style.

Any more thoughts that might help?
Others of you besides James?

 

A tool to help with our current discussion...a definition of STYLE :

style (stl)
n.
1. The way in which something is said, done, expressed, or performed: a style of speech and writing.
2. The combination of distinctive features of literary or artistic expression, execution, or performance characterizing a particular person, group, school, or era.
3. Sort; type: a style of furniture.
4. A quality of imagination and individuality expressed in one's actions and tastes: does things with style.
5.
a. A comfortable and elegant mode of existence: living in style.
b. A mode of living: the style of the very rich.
6.
a. The fashion of the moment, especially of dress; vogue.
b. A particular fashion: the style of the 1920s

(SOURCE: TheFreeDictionary.com)

 

Aaron...would you please post my Romans 14 post you reference above...thanks. I don't remember it. Please refresh me. Thanks.

 

Explain your "caution" post about "demeanor"...I am not following you...thanks!

 

I don't know that the Bible is concerned with endorsing specific musical styles for worship.

Can you demonstrate that was what Paul had in mind?

In any case, I think such a line of inquiry has no bearing on whether or not certain musical styles can be considered inherently sinful or righteous.

 

Those that preach for UPDATING styles…want to keep this debate in the style arena. Yet it goes way beyond styles and taste and even updates.

Things do change. I drive a car, I never have had a horse. I like all imacs and ipods. i have over 50 macs...because i own 2 business. We can use computers and other high tech things in Church...and should if we can. We need to update all the time. What i have seen in some of this update is the wrong heart. Now I trust your heart is right..and your church. But let me share my world.

For over 2 years i kept getting emails from people blasting all of this "church growth" ...dress down stuff. I thought..these people (the ones i got emails from)are crazy.

Can not we worship anyway we want? Who are we to tell OTHERS how to worship? I mean i would write 2 LONG emails a day standing up for those that wanted to take on this movement. After all…In the end, the Word is getting out...that is what matters. Its all about styles. I may not like that style..but praise God if it works. I thought it was over taste.

then........

it...........

came.............

to...........

MY CHURCH

That is when I saw what happens in this movement. Now do not get me wrong. I'm not claiming all churchs that go this way...end up the same as mine. But i'll share what mine did. and i have seen it in every one that went this way.

The church I went to for 25 years was a great Bible preaching church for 50 years, but changed to a “Christ Centered Worship Center” 3 years ago. I hang in there as long as I could but had to leave this year. We held hands and sang more songs but had less preaching. We changed the music to sound more like the world. In order to bring the lost in. “We need to make them want to come”..was what we heard. The lost?...they didn't come. Those that dropped out of church...well..some of them came back. They came "because it was now fun to come to church". The singing was really bad. I’m not talking taste here. The new songs were very weak in truth and in music quality. The choir that was hands down the best in the state now had songbooks with no parts. The books were called “easy song pieces for Church choir” or something like that. I had 3 girls in the choir for years. They said the leaders wanted to change so as not to sound so “churchy”

We heard a lot about Gods love preached.
God loves you.
Lets sing “I love you Lord” . We sang this 2 times a month or more. I love the song...but i felt i was chanting or something we sang it so much.

We started to hold hands while we pray.

Where as this is true about God loving us, there is more to God than this.

The preacher would not use the word sin. He would always change it to..Mistake….or he blow it. Is not sin in the Bible?

This is not only in my old church but every church I have seen that went this way. Weak preaching and fuzzy feelings…with downgrading the music. The phrase Christ Centered Worship sounds good, but does not really do this very thing.

this downgrading is across everything in the church. dummy down is not what made my old church great. preaching Gods Word made my church great.

again...its not the taste....its wanting to be like the world.

now...that is how i have seen it. maybe you have been blessed not to see it that way.

Then we have the old “the church needs to be more relevant”

Let me ask you…When has the gospel been unrelevant?

I have a book i would like for you to read..
"Prophetic Untimeliness "

here is a line from this book.

"By our uncritical pursuit of relevance we have actually courted irrelevance; by our breathless chase after relevance without a matching committment to faithfulness, we have become not only unfaithful, but irrelevant; by our determined efforts to redefine outselves in ways that are more compelling to the modern world than are faithful to Christ, we have lost not only our identity but our authority and our relevance. Our crying need is to be faithful as well as relevant"
*************************
here is a quote i thought was funny..not from the book

Quote:

When Spurgeon was preaching, Barnum and Bailey offered him a fat price to come over here and preach.
Mr. Spurgeon answered with Acts 13:10, "0 full of all subtly and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" We plunge frantically in all directions trying to popularize the gospel.
The Ichabod Memorial Church decides to pack them in with folk music And then they say over at Ephesus, "Well, we'll try a TV personality." Then Pergamos says, "Well, we're gonna have a fella who can play a fiddle and beat tap drums and blow a harmonica all at the same time." Then over at Sardis they say, "We're gonna put on Aunt Dinah's quilting party. Come dressed like they were a hundred years ago, and we'll all see Nellie home." Then over at Laodicea they have a talking horse.
****************************


Jesus said, "The world will hate you (because they view you as irrelevant) but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

We want the world to love the church.

The gospel is relevant to the world as is. Do not try and change to be like the world.


Ok I’ll stop and let others talk.

In Christ…James

 

I was thinking about Psalm 150.

 

Basically, once again, we must avoid the style because there is someone somewhere int he world who doesn;t like it. What wins out by default? Classical/traditional, of course!
But then there are people in the world who think instruments are bad. Take into consideration your oft repeated point (iun agreement with them) that they were silently banned in the NT, then that all the more means we should not have them.
Then, there are Jews (including converts) to whom the marching style form of the hymns reminds them of the Nazi's.
And even some of us, whom the rejection of all other styles in favor of classical only reminds us of racism.

So if those scriptures mean that we must yield to every person who objects to anything, then we can't listen to or do anything.
(And I do not see Paul afterward preaching mandatory vegetarianism. Instead, he condemns those who "forbid meats". Obviously, it was an ATTITUDE he was telling us to have; but we can't yiled to anyone who comes along, because their motives may be wrong!)

Welcome back, Daniel. Actually, much had changed, as for months, there was no Aaron, and no debate on styles at all. Just discussions on some band or questions on other stuff, or whatever. Aaron would every few month try to start this stuff up again, but at first it went nowhere. For some reason, this one picked back up. (I chacked over here regularly, but forgot this title was a debate). Quite obvious that the issue has been answered, and there is little left to discuss (uness one wants to just repeat disroven assertions).

 

Hi, Eric. It is good to come back and thrash around a little bit on da board. It's always the same in that respect, Eric. Once I show back up Aaron kicks into his contumely mode and licks his chops as he thinks he has me trapped. I just LOL.

Hey, I did notice the change with him off the scene for a while. I have been reading (not posting) for months. I like the music forum when you guys can have really civil discussions without petty interference.

Back to this thread...the only reason I jumped on board was because I had the wonderful privilege of eating with Dan Lucarini and found him to be a gentleman's gentleman. I wish all of those of the conservative stripe were like Dan Lucarini. We would have a whole different dialogue...there would be a definite improvement from some of the ridiculous foolishness we see on this board.

Later...

 

While I disagree with Aaron over the nature of music (I don't believe any music in and of itself can be righteous or evil) I think he does have valid points on contemporary worship. There does appear to be far too much emotionalism creeping in which coincides with some pretty vacuous choruses and far too much instrumentation. I for one do not think drums and other loud, distracting arrangements are necessary or beneficial at all.