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Confessions of a Former Worship Leader
- Thread starter Aaron
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Travelsong thats the point really - not that the music itself is bad - nor that the style of music is bad - but the purpose to which Christian "flower children" are putting it to
Now if Aaron could just admit that the purpose is evil and not music itself - this whole forum could pretty much shutdown and be happy
Come on Aaron you can say it:
"The purpose to which the Contempary Christian Music movement put the God-given gift of music if offensive, abusive, and on the whole can be considered evil (especially due to the lack of talent). However I believe that music in and of itself is not evil."
Every now and then I hear a truly talented CCM artist actually using music to praise God - and it almost redeems the entire movement
But then I am subjected to the rest of the crap out there that gets sold just because its "christian" and then I remember why I personally dont like contempary music except to use in personal and private moments.
Now if Aaron could just admit that the purpose is evil and not music itself - this whole forum could pretty much shutdown and be happy
Come on Aaron you can say it:
"The purpose to which the Contempary Christian Music movement put the God-given gift of music if offensive, abusive, and on the whole can be considered evil (especially due to the lack of talent). However I believe that music in and of itself is not evil."
Every now and then I hear a truly talented CCM artist actually using music to praise God - and it almost redeems the entire movement
But then I am subjected to the rest of the crap out there that gets sold just because its "christian" and then I remember why I personally dont like contempary music except to use in personal and private moments.
Now, for those who've agreed that the Bible does indeed address musical styles:
I'm going to assume that Dale's and Travelsong's allusion to psalms, hymns and spiritual songs means that the Bible says we are to use a variety of styles. Correct me if I'm wrong, (wow! betcha never thought you'd hear that from me!) but I think I'm right about this. I've heard the argument before, and a variety of styles is mentioned. There can be no denying that.
So, my question is, would it be unscriptural to NOT use a variety of styles, i.e. disobedient to the will of God?
I'm going to assume that Dale's and Travelsong's allusion to psalms, hymns and spiritual songs means that the Bible says we are to use a variety of styles. Correct me if I'm wrong, (wow! betcha never thought you'd hear that from me!) but I think I'm right about this. I've heard the argument before, and a variety of styles is mentioned. There can be no denying that.
So, my question is, would it be unscriptural to NOT use a variety of styles, i.e. disobedient to the will of God?
T
Travelsong
Guest
I don't know that Paul was conerned about limiting worship in song to a set of paticular styles.
Baptist in Richmond
Active Member
Well hello there, Aaron,
Sorry, I didn't see that you addressed me. My apologies, as I am not really used to your simplistic albeit affectionate little nicknames.
Thank you for your post. I appreciate your gracious comments to me as well as those in the discussion.
Have a great week,
BiR
T
Travelsong
Guest
No doubt another sensual and base indulgenceOriginally posted by Aaron:
I can't help but read your shorthand "BiR" as anything but "Beer."
Dale McNamee
New Member
Dear Aaron,
You wrote:
Here are some links regarding the history of sacred or church music:
http://ak.essortment.com/churchmusich_rksc.htm
http://www.smithcreekmusic.com/Hymnology/Historical.overview/Historical.statements.html
http://www.smithcreekmusic.com/Hymnology/Historical.Periods.html
http://www.ok-history.mus.ok.us/folk/black_sacred_music.html
Each of these websites chronicle the development of church music from antiquity onward and the vast diversity of musical styles used to praise and glorify God in worship,including the rich musical contribution of African-Americans!
As I have said in my earlier postings,my church uses a variety of musical styles over the church year to worship our Lord,from Sarum plainchant to Contemporary Sacred music and P & W,along with the hymns and spiritual songs of our fellow
Christians from the countries that our missionaries served.
There's over 1,500 years of scared music,why limit its usage to the hymns of 1880's to 1950's ?
In Christ,
Dale
You wrote:
Yes,that's right! An objective look at the history of church/sacred music would support my position.
Here are some links regarding the history of sacred or church music:
http://ak.essortment.com/churchmusich_rksc.htm
http://www.smithcreekmusic.com/Hymnology/Historical.overview/Historical.statements.html
http://www.smithcreekmusic.com/Hymnology/Historical.Periods.html
http://www.ok-history.mus.ok.us/folk/black_sacred_music.html
Each of these websites chronicle the development of church music from antiquity onward and the vast diversity of musical styles used to praise and glorify God in worship,including the rich musical contribution of African-Americans!
As I have said in my earlier postings,my church uses a variety of musical styles over the church year to worship our Lord,from Sarum plainchant to Contemporary Sacred music and P & W,along with the hymns and spiritual songs of our fellow
Christians from the countries that our missionaries served.
There's over 1,500 years of scared music,why limit its usage to the hymns of 1880's to 1950's ?
In Christ,
Dale
Baptist in Richmond
Active Member
Greetings Aaron,Originally posted by Aaron:
I used to write "BnR" for Baptist in Richmond. I kept reading it as "Beaner." So I started spelling it that way. You're the Beaner, the Baptist in Richmond.
Indeed, I am certain that you surely offered that simplistic albeit affectionate nickname in the spirit of Christian love.
Wow, very original. Actually, I am a nondrinker, and therein lies the irony. But don't get me wrong: it is not unappreciated that you would simultaneously make references to my screenname and an alcoholic beverage - undoubtedly for my edification, right? I must confess: I might have found humor in something more cerebral; however, your edification is very much appreciated.I can't help but read your shorthand "BiR" as anything but "Beer."
Have a great week,
BiR
I would be hesitant to give full assent to the statement/response. Styles are a man-made designation, much like the denominations of churches, and are not a God-given or commanded label. Styles are description tools made my man for the purpose of identification. I still do not believe that God was delineating Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs as styles. I believe those are solely designations of music direction--that is, those music items to God, or about God, or in response to God. In my mind that is a totally different "puppy" than style.
Perhaps our meaning of the word style is the sticking point here. That's all I can figure. The definition of style is likely where I part company with you. Do you think that is possible?
Perhaps our meaning of the word style is the sticking point here. That's all I can figure. The definition of style is likely where I part company with you. Do you think that is possible?
I decided to go ahead and give you my operating definition of musical style:
"the characteristic way of presenting various musical elements including rhythm, melody, harmony, tone color, dynamics, form, and texture."
web page for definition source
It's from this definition that I don't believe the Ephesians 5 passage is speaking about musical styles. I see the defintion of style dealing with the presentation . I see Ephesians 5 as dealing with content . Style of presentation is different from content.
Would you be willing to "run" with this, Aaron?
You will patently notice that I am not running from a scriptural premise about styles. I am seeking to be as consistent as possible (though I know that total consistency is not possible) in holding to my belief that Ephesians 5 is not dealing with musical styles. Using the above definition of style, as far as I can tell, there are no scriptural commands about the type of music style we should use in worship.
"the characteristic way of presenting various musical elements including rhythm, melody, harmony, tone color, dynamics, form, and texture."
web page for definition source
It's from this definition that I don't believe the Ephesians 5 passage is speaking about musical styles. I see the defintion of style dealing with the presentation . I see Ephesians 5 as dealing with content . Style of presentation is different from content.
Would you be willing to "run" with this, Aaron?
You will patently notice that I am not running from a scriptural premise about styles. I am seeking to be as consistent as possible (though I know that total consistency is not possible) in holding to my belief that Ephesians 5 is not dealing with musical styles. Using the above definition of style, as far as I can tell, there are no scriptural commands about the type of music style we should use in worship.
All of this having been said, let me talk about presentation. It is in the presentation that things get so messy and controversial. We endlessly argue about what is appropriate music for worship. I don't believe anyone can definitively answer this question in a dogmatic manner.
True, we can talk about lyrical content being Biblically accurate. We can all agree that certain off-color words should not ever be used in our musical worship. We may be able to delve into how our musicians dress based on the principles of gender differentiation and modesty. It's in these issues that most all threads in the music forum have frayed and end up unraveling.
(There are many other things we would all most likely agree upon that I have not listed here.)
But, again, I don't believe we can exercise dogma on the area of style. Many of us don't see how we can make a list of approved songs or styles from an absolutist point of view and then impose those beliefs on another culture somewhere else in the world outside of the United States or even in another geocultural section of our own country.
I believe this is where the style argument has gone awry. Our foundational definition and understanding appears to be skewed.
Let me invite thought from all sides, not just Aaron specifically.
True, we can talk about lyrical content being Biblically accurate. We can all agree that certain off-color words should not ever be used in our musical worship. We may be able to delve into how our musicians dress based on the principles of gender differentiation and modesty. It's in these issues that most all threads in the music forum have frayed and end up unraveling.
(There are many other things we would all most likely agree upon that I have not listed here.)
But, again, I don't believe we can exercise dogma on the area of style. Many of us don't see how we can make a list of approved songs or styles from an absolutist point of view and then impose those beliefs on another culture somewhere else in the world outside of the United States or even in another geocultural section of our own country.
I believe this is where the style argument has gone awry. Our foundational definition and understanding appears to be skewed.
Let me invite thought from all sides, not just Aaron specifically.
Daniel, let's keep this simple. Style just means demeanor, the outward manner or character of something. That's what folks mean when they say style. Okay?
Now taking that definition, what, in your opinion, is a Scriptural approach to musical styles in the life of a Christian?
Now taking that definition, what, in your opinion, is a Scriptural approach to musical styles in the life of a Christian?
Dale McNamee
New Member
Dear Aaron,
Here are a couple of definitions and uses of the word "style" from Dictionary.com:
style ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stl)
n.
The way in which something is said, done, expressed, or performed: a style of speech and writing.
The combination of distinctive features of literary or artistic expression, execution, or performance characterizing a particular person, group, school, or era.
Sort; type: a style of furniture.
A quality of imagination and individuality expressed in one's actions and tastes: does things with style.
A comfortable and elegant mode of existence: living in style.
A mode of living: the style of the very rich.
The fashion of the moment, especially of dress; vogue.
A particular fashion: the style of the 1920s. See Synonyms at fashion.
A customary manner of presenting printed material, including usage, punctuation, spelling, typography, and arrangement.
A form of address; a title.
An implement used for etching or engraving.
A slender pointed writing instrument used by the ancients on wax tablets.
The needle of a phonograph.
The gnomon of a sundial.
Botany. The usually slender part of a pistil, situated between the ovary and the stigma.
Zoology. A slender, tubular, or bristlelike process: a cartilaginous style.
Medicine. A surgical probing instrument; a stylet.
Obsolete. A pen.
tr.v. styled, styl·ing, styles
To call or name; designate: George VI styled his brother Duke of Windsor.
To make consistent with rules of style: style a manuscript.
To give style to: style hair.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin stylus, stilus, spike, pointed instrument used for writing, style. See stylus.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
styler n.
styling n.
[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
style
see cramp someone's style; go out (of style); in fashion (style).
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer.
Copyright © 1997 by The Christine Ammer 1992 Trust. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
style
n 1: a particular kind (as to appearance); "this style of shoe is in demand"
2: how something is done or how it happens; "her dignified manner"; "his rapid manner of talking"; "their nomadic mode of existence"; "in the characteristic New York style"; "a lonely way of life"; "in an abrasive fashion" [syn: manner, mode, way, fashion]
3: a way of expressing something (in language or art or music etc.) that is characteristic of a particular person or group of people or period; "all the reporters were expected to adopt the style of the newspaper" [syn: expressive style]
4: distinctive and stylish elegance; "he wooed her with the confident dash of a cavalry officer" [syn: dash, elan, flair, panache]
5: the popular taste at a given time; "leather is the latest vogue"; "he followed current trends"; "the 1920s had a style of their own" [syn: vogue, trend]
6: (botany) the narrow elongated part of the pistil between the ovary and the stigma
7: editorial directions to be followed in spelling and punctuation and capitalization and typographical display
8: a pointed tool for writing or drawing or engraving; "he drew the design on the stencil with a steel stylus" [syn: stylus]
9: a slender bristlelike or tubular process; "a cartilaginous style"
While "style" can include demeanor,it also includes many other things.
In Christ,
Dale
Here are a couple of definitions and uses of the word "style" from Dictionary.com:
style ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stl)
n.
The way in which something is said, done, expressed, or performed: a style of speech and writing.
The combination of distinctive features of literary or artistic expression, execution, or performance characterizing a particular person, group, school, or era.
Sort; type: a style of furniture.
A quality of imagination and individuality expressed in one's actions and tastes: does things with style.
A comfortable and elegant mode of existence: living in style.
A mode of living: the style of the very rich.
The fashion of the moment, especially of dress; vogue.
A particular fashion: the style of the 1920s. See Synonyms at fashion.
A customary manner of presenting printed material, including usage, punctuation, spelling, typography, and arrangement.
A form of address; a title.
An implement used for etching or engraving.
A slender pointed writing instrument used by the ancients on wax tablets.
The needle of a phonograph.
The gnomon of a sundial.
Botany. The usually slender part of a pistil, situated between the ovary and the stigma.
Zoology. A slender, tubular, or bristlelike process: a cartilaginous style.
Medicine. A surgical probing instrument; a stylet.
Obsolete. A pen.
tr.v. styled, styl·ing, styles
To call or name; designate: George VI styled his brother Duke of Windsor.
To make consistent with rules of style: style a manuscript.
To give style to: style hair.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin stylus, stilus, spike, pointed instrument used for writing, style. See stylus.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
styler n.
styling n.
[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
style
see cramp someone's style; go out (of style); in fashion (style).
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer.
Copyright © 1997 by The Christine Ammer 1992 Trust. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
style
n 1: a particular kind (as to appearance); "this style of shoe is in demand"
2: how something is done or how it happens; "her dignified manner"; "his rapid manner of talking"; "their nomadic mode of existence"; "in the characteristic New York style"; "a lonely way of life"; "in an abrasive fashion" [syn: manner, mode, way, fashion]
3: a way of expressing something (in language or art or music etc.) that is characteristic of a particular person or group of people or period; "all the reporters were expected to adopt the style of the newspaper" [syn: expressive style]
4: distinctive and stylish elegance; "he wooed her with the confident dash of a cavalry officer" [syn: dash, elan, flair, panache]
5: the popular taste at a given time; "leather is the latest vogue"; "he followed current trends"; "the 1920s had a style of their own" [syn: vogue, trend]
6: (botany) the narrow elongated part of the pistil between the ovary and the stigma
7: editorial directions to be followed in spelling and punctuation and capitalization and typographical display
8: a pointed tool for writing or drawing or engraving; "he drew the design on the stencil with a steel stylus" [syn: stylus]
9: a slender bristlelike or tubular process; "a cartilaginous style"
While "style" can include demeanor,it also includes many other things.
In Christ,
Dale
Dale McNamee
New Member
Dear Daniel,
I agree with your arguements regarding Eph.5 and style.
The style of music,as Aaron defines it,isn't mentioned specifically in the passage,the content of such music is.
Following Aaron's thesis further,one can assume that singing and playing contemporary worship music in church somehow reflects the "wrong demeanor" while traditional hymns,played stiffly,does.
In Christ,
Dale
I agree with your arguements regarding Eph.5 and style.
The style of music,as Aaron defines it,isn't mentioned specifically in the passage,the content of such music is.
Following Aaron's thesis further,one can assume that singing and playing contemporary worship music in church somehow reflects the "wrong demeanor" while traditional hymns,played stiffly,does.
In Christ,
Dale
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