Consequences of the Warning Passages in Hebrews

[swaimj]

Faith Alone,
I have no problem with your application and interpretation of the passage as far as it goes. You have also illustrated your interpretation well with the story of Annanias and Sapphira. However, I think you are limiting the scope of the letter’s address by seeing it as a message exclusively to those who are certainly born again. At one point, the writer says “Take heed, brethren, that there is not in any of you an evil heart of unbelief to turn from the living God”. So, while the writer does assume that his audience is a group of believers whom he is encouraging to continue in the faith, there is a possibility that some are not genuinely born again. This is always a possibility when we are speaking to an audience of profession Christians. For those who are not truly believers, the warnings are warnings of eternal judgment. The biblical illustration for this type of person would be Judas. Judas was thought to be a believer. He witnessed the miraculous power of Jesus and it is hard to argue that he did not perform miracles himself. Yet, he was the “son of perdition” whose judgment was not just the loss of his life, but eternity in hell.

As to the Ephesians passage, good works are not the cause of salvation, but they are the result of salvation. No amount of good works can earn or contribute to salvation, but no one who is a believer will lack good works. This does not mean that every single work is good. It does not mean that all believers produce the same level of good works. But believers do good works, without exception and the natural progression of the Christian life is increasing good works. The argument that has been made here by others is that it is normal to get saved and never show any results via good works. That is false teaching that is as bad as teaching that good works are required for salvation.

 

[J. Jump]

Brother swaimj I have read your latest post to FA and it saddens me that you continue in church tradition despite it having no Biblical foundation. It has been repeatedly shown to you that works are not a given as you suggest, yet you continue to believe that they are.

So you are more than welcome to continue to believe that way, but you will also continue to put an unnecessary burden on Christians that ought naught be there.

As much as you want works to be a will the Bible says they are a should and there is nothing that we can do other than have ears to hear what the Spirit has said. We've got to stop re-writing Scripture to make it say what we want it to say and just teach what it does say.

 

[Faith alone]

JJ,

Go back and re-read my posts. I do not believe as you have interpreted them. No believer is guaranteed to do good works. How I believe there is most definitely NOT according to church traditions.

Yes, since 2 Corin. 5:17 says that ANYONE in Christ is a new creature, I do say that he has been changed. But I do NOT say that it is a guarantee that he will persist in good works, nor do I claim that this is the path to eternal security. That is what is referred to as the "perseverance of the saints." I refer to our eternal security as "the preservation of the saints."

FA

Brother swaimj I have read your latest post to FA and it saddens me that you continue in church tradition despite it having no Biblical foundation. It has been repeatedly shown to you that works are not a given as you suggest, yet you continue to believe that they are.

So you are more than welcome to continue to believe that way, but you will also continue to put an unnecessary burden on Christians that ought naught be there.

As much as you want works to be a will the Bible says they are a should and there is nothing that we can do other than have ears to hear what the Spirit has said. We've got to stop re-writing Scripture to make it say what we want it to say and just teach what it does say.

 

[Faith alone]

Swaimj,

Thx for your courteous comments...

At one point, the writer says “Take heed, brethren, that there is not in any of you an evil heart of unbelief to turn from the living God”. So, while the writer does assume that his audience is a group of believers whom he is encouraging to continue in the faith, there is a possibility that some are not genuinely born again.

As I read that text, it refers to genuine believers being led to turn away from the living God. He calls them brethren because they are fellow believers. The heart of unbelief does not mean that they had not trusted in Christ for eternal life, but refers to their lack of continuing to trust Him to live out that life.

FA

 

[Herb Evans]

FA, I am a believer in free grace, OSAS easy believism, in regards to eternal salvation. But these warning passages may easily apply to literal hell fire, and still not imply eternal damnation. A growing number of us have recognized that there are many significant warnings to believers in scripture. Hebrews 10 certainly is one of the more disturbing passages in the bible.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

It is evident that Paul is speaking of believers, when he talks of those who have received the knowledge of the truth and been sanctified by the blood of the covenant. Whatever the fiery indignation is refering to, we are assured that those who count that blood an unholy thing are worthy of much sorer punishment than the physical death that was meted out under Moses' law.

Be advised that this poster is a disciple of Heretic Joey Faust. Faustites see hell fire everywhere for carnal believers. They believe that carnal believers are killed at the JSOC and thrown into hell for the time that they are excluded from the millennium. I am already on a prolonged thread with this guy or I would participate in this one. Just so you know what you are dealing with. -- Herb Evans

 

[J. Jump]

FA the quote that you responded to was directed at Brother Swaimj and others that think works are a guarantee to be done. I re-read my post and understand that it could seem as though my comments were directed at you, but they were not.

My apology for the confusion!

 

[swaimj]

Faith Alone,

He does address them as "brethren" and I think you are reasonable to conclude that brethren refers to fellow believers. But, when he raises the possibility that "any of you" (which I take to be a single individual or possibly several individuals, but definitely not the entire group) might "turn from the living God", I don't see how one who "turns from the living God" can be a believer. He seems to be pointing out that there might be individuals in the group who are not actually believers. Again, Judas would be an example of such a scenario.

 

[James_Newman]

Be advised that this poster is a disciple of Heretic Joey Faust. Faustites see hell fire everywhere for carnal believers. They believe that carnal believers are killed at the JSOC and thrown into hell for the time that they are excluded from the millennium. I am already on a prolonged thread with this guy or I would participate in this one. Just so you know what you are dealing with. -- Herb Evans

Oh, no! I've been made! You crack me up, Herb. I would appreciate it though if you would at least be kind enough to include our website when you post your advisories.

http://www.kingdombaptist.org

We have scores of articles and plenty of sermons available online.

 

[Blammo]

Be advised that this poster is a disciple of Heretic Joey Faust. Faustites see hell fire everywhere for carnal believers. They believe that carnal believers are killed at the JSOC and thrown into hell for the time that they are excluded from the millennium. I am already on a prolonged thread with this guy or I would participate in this one. Just so you know what you are dealing with. -- Herb Evans

Herb,

Most of us are fully aware "what we are dealing with" in James Newman. He is a brother in Christ that presents his view on certain Scriptures in a civil manner. He believes a doctrine that is new to some of us, makes sense, and I have no problem with him believing it. I intend to remain open minded and allow the Holy Spirit and the word of God inform my opinion.

There are many different views on many different subjects expressed in these forums. Folks have made sound arguments, many a passage of Scripture has been presented, and many a different attitude was employed in the process. I would suggest, if you want to be taken seriously, you tone it down a bit.

 

[Herb Evans]

Herb,

Most of us are fully aware "what we are dealing with" in James Newman. He is a brother in Christ that presents his view on certain Scriptures in a civil manner. He believes a doctrine that is new to some of us, makes sense, and I have no problem with him believing it. I intend to remain open minded and allow the Holy Spirit and the word of God inform my opinion.

There are many different views on many different subjects expressed in these forums. Folks have made sound arguments, many a passage of Scripture has been presented, and many a different attitude was employed in the process. I would suggest, if you want to be taken seriously, you tone it down a bit.

Help yourself. Jim got all his material from Heretic Faust's books, so why don't you just get the Book, "The Rod." -- Herb Evans

 

[J. Jump]

Most of us are fully aware "what we are dealing with" in James Newman. He is a brother in Christ that presents his view on certain Scriptures in a civil manner. He believes a doctrine that is new to some of us, makes sense, and I have no problem with him believing it. I intend to remain open minded and allow the Holy Spirit and the word of God inform my opinion.

There are many different views on many different subjects expressed in these forums. Folks have made sound arguments, many a passage of Scripture has been presented, and many a different attitude was employed in the process. I would suggest, if you want to be taken seriously, you tone it down a bit.

Blammo thank you very much for such a sane post. It is so refreshing to see openess and honesty even if it doesn't lead to the same point.

 

[Faith alone]

Faith Alone,

He does address them as "brethren" and I think you are reasonable to conclude that brethren refers to fellow believers. But, when he raises the possibility that "any of you" (which I take to be a single individual or possibly several individuals, but definitely not the entire group) might "turn from the living God", I don't see how one who "turns from the living God" can be a believer. He seems to be pointing out that there might be individuals in the group who are not actually believers. Again, Judas would be an example of such a scenario.

Swaimj,

Just so you know my take here, I agree that he is concerned that some of the believers may turn from following the Living God. I do believe that a genuine Christian can turn from the Living God. We do not gain eternal life by turning or repenting, but by believing - as a free gift. Hence, we cannot "lose" that E.L. by turning from God. There are severe consequences for such actions, but IMO they do not include eternal damnation.

Here's the context of Hebrews 3:12 (thru vs. 16) - in the HCSB... it does not say "turning" (EPISTREFW) - in the Greek, FWIW - but APOSTHNAI - "departing from."

Hebrews 3:12-16 (HCSB) Watch out, brothers, so that there won't be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart that departs from the living God. But encourage each other daily, while it is still called today, so that none of you is hardened by sin's deception. For we have become companions of the Messiah if we hold firmly until the end the reality that we had at the start. As it is said: Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion. For who heard and rebelled? Wasn't it really all who came out of Egypt under Moses?

"Companions" translates METAXOI - a neat little Greek word, used mainly in Hebrews in the NT (something like 5 of the 6 times) which is similar to KOINWNIA - and refers to being committed partners with Christ. If we do not hold our confession of faith firmly to the end - then yeah, we are not METAXOI - partners - referring to inheritance truth. But we are still brothers and sisters in Christ. I underlined where the author refers to a "reality" which they all had from the start. (All of the readers)

The illustration of Israel in the wilderness is one in which they were not permitted to enter into rest because they did not trust God to give them victory. But entering the promised land does not illustrate entering heaven. We as believers can rebel against God - as they did in the wilderness.

FA

 

[swaimj]

Faith Alone,
I don't agree with the theological presupposition you have revealed that faith can be exercised apart from repentance at the time of salvation. That's probably a discussion for another thread, so I digress.

On second thought, I think the Hebrews 3 passage itself refutes your theological presupposition. The phrase "take care, brethren lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God" contains BOTH the concept of faith and repentance. The present danger that some in the group might have an evil, unbelieving heart reveals that faith had either been present or had been professed earlier. The present danger that some might "depart", "turn away", "fall away" reveals that at some time in the past they had come into relationsip with God. The possibility of departing demands that its opposite, repentance, had occurred at sometime in the past. Otherwise a departure or turning away would not be possible.

Even if you disagree with this and if you believe that "faith alone" seperate from repentence is necessary for salvation then a person with an evil, unbelieving heart has a heart that is fully absent the one qualification that must be met for salvation. In this case, the individuals in the group who are being so warned are either in danger of losing their salvation (something that I think you and I agree is not possible) or they have never truly been converted. In the case of these warned individuals, I think the latter is true.

 

[Herb Evans]

swaimj]Faith Alone,
I don't agree with the theological presupposition you have revealed that faith can be exercised apart from repentance at the time of salvation. That's probably a discussion for another thread, so I digress.

We are even! I don't agree with you either, so the Bible will have to break the tie. I did not reveal that faith could be exercised apart from repentance. That is your straw man. My treatise was regarding regeneration before faith and tepentance. -- Herb Evans

Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. -- Herb Evans

A man must repent before he can believe. If a man does not repent, he cannot believe. -- Herb Evans

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

God made repentance and forgiveness of sins Israel available to all Israel, but all Israel did not repent. --Herb Evans

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God also granted all the Gentiles repentance UNTO life, but all the Gentiles did not take avail themselves of the repentance UNTO life. --Herb Evans

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

John preached repentance so that Israelites might believe on Christ Jesus. -- Herb Evans

Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Repentance toward God must preceed faith, faith which alone can only save, since repentance alone cannot save. -- Herb Evans

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

It is the goodness of God, not the man (or predestination), that leads a man to repentance. -- Herb Evans

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God wills that all that he has granted repentance to come to repentance. But all do not come, therefore all do not get saved by believing-- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

All chapters of Heretic Faust's book, The Rod, are critiqued here.
Interesting reading! The website is a mid trib web site, however. -- Herb
Evans

http://p079.ezboard.com/bthemidweekrapture

 

[webdog]

The present danger that some might "depart", "turn away", "fall away" reveals that at some time in the past they had come into relationsip with God. The possibility of departing demands that its opposite, repentance, had occurred at sometime in the past. Otherwise a departure or turning away would not be possible.

Not necessarily. Turning or falling can also be from the way one is taught about a relationship with God. Scripture teaches us that there are those who "taste" the truth, only to "depart" from that.

 

[drfuss]

This thread has interesting explanations so as to agree with eternal security. Conditional security means that your assurance of salvation depends on continuing to trust in Jesus as Savior; and a Christian can forfeit (not lose) his salvation be deciding to stop trusting in Jesus.
If one believes in conditional security, Hebrews means just what it says. No innovative explanations necessary.

 

[swaimj]

I would like to refine this sentence to make it more clear:

The possibility of departing demands that its opposite, repentance, had occurred at sometime in the past. Otherwise a departure or turning away would not be possible.

The possibility of departing or turning from God demands that its opposite, repentance or turning to God, has already occurred. Otherwise a departure would not be possible.

 

[Herb Evans]

This thread has interesting explanations so as to agree with eternal security. Conditional security means that your assurance of salvation depends on continuing to trust in Jesus as Savior; and a Christian can forfeit (not lose) his salvation be deciding to stop trusting in Jesus.
If one believes in conditional security, Hebrews means just what it says. No innovative explanations necessary.

Well, now we have heard an invented pontification based nothing but Dr. Fuss' word for it. I would love to find a real Christian that desires to forfeit his salvation. Wow! -- Herb Evans

 

[swaimj]

drfuss said:

Conditional security means that your assurance of salvation depends on continuing to trust in Jesus as Savior;

I agree with this concept in its strictest sense. A person's personal sense of security in Jesus is directly related to the trust and obedience toward God. If they are disobedient or lack faith then it is natural to doubt their own salvation. In fact, it is good that they doubt their salvation at that point so that they are driven back to faith and obedience. I find it very troubling that people can live in sin with no remorse, guilt, or conviction and yet claim that they are confident that they are saved.