Consequences of the Warning Passages in Hebrews

[swaimj]

Herb Evans said:

We are even! I don't agree with you either, so the Bible will have to break the tie.

I am unclear as to with whom you disagree in this statement. We you disagreeing with me or with Faith Alone?

 

[Herb Evans]

Swaimj,

Just so you know my take here, I agree that he is concerned that some of the believers may turn from following the Living God. I do believe that a genuine Christian can turn from the Living God. We do not gain eternal life by turning or repenting, but by believing - as a free gift. Hence, we cannot "lose" that E.L. by turning from God. There are severe consequences for such actions, but IMO they do not include eternal damnation.

Here's the context of Hebrews 3:12 (thru vs. 16) - in the HCSB... it does not say "turning" (EPISTREFW) - in the Greek, FWIW - but APOSTHNAI - "departing from."

Hebrews 3:12-16 (HCSB) Watch out, brothers, so that there won't be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart that departs from the living God. But encourage each other daily, while it is still called today, so that none of you is hardened by sin's deception. For we have become companions of the Messiah if we hold firmly until the end the reality that we had at the start. As it is said: Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion. For who heard and rebelled? Wasn't it really all who came out of Egypt under Moses?

"Companions" translates METAXOI - a neat little Greek word, used mainly in Hebrews in the NT (something like 5 of the 6 times) which is similar to KOINWNIA - and refers to being committed partners with Christ. If we do not hold our confession of faith firmly to the end - then yeah, we are not METAXOI - partners - referring to inheritance truth. But we are still brothers and sisters in Christ. I underlined where the author refers to a "reality" which they all had from the start. (All of the readers)

The illustration of Israel in the wilderness is one in which they were not permitted to enter into rest because they did not trust God to give them victory. But entering the promised land does not illustrate entering heaven. We as believers can rebel against God - as they did in the wilderness.FA

We are told that a mixed multitude left Egypt, no doubt there were lost unbelievers among them as well as saved unbelievers. Nevertheless, the promised land was not a type of heaven or eternal life but of victory. -- Herb Evans

 

[J. Jump]

We are told that a mixed multitude left Egypt, no doubt there were lost unbelievers among them as well as saved unbelievers. Nevertheless, the promised land was not a type of heaven or eternal life but of victory.

Can you please provide Scripture that says some of the children of Israel that left Egypt left in an "unsaved" state as you claim.

 

[J. Jump]

This thread has interesting explanations so as to agree with eternal security. Conditional security means that your assurance of salvation depends on continuing to trust in Jesus as Savior; and a Christian can forfeit (not lose) his salvation be deciding to stop trusting in Jesus. If one believes in conditional security, Hebrews means just what it says. No innovative explanations necessary.

It's amazing how works based savlation is re-worded to make it acceptable to some. Conditional security is nothing more than adding self into the salvation equation instead of beleiving that the finished work of Chirst is enough.

And again the context of Hebrews is not eternal (spiritual) salvation. If we miss the first step how are we going to be able to walk the correct path? Context is king and unless we leave it in the original context misinterpretation is all but unavoidable.

 

[J. Jump]

The possibility of departing or turning from God demands that its opposite, repentance or turning to God, has already occurred. Otherwise a departure would not be possible.

I was going to say I agree with this statement, but then I read it again. And I would have to say it depends on what you are talking about. If you are talking about eternal (spiritual) salvation then I would disagree.

However if you are talking about salvation for the coming kingdom age then I would agree somewhat, but don't think that it is as easy and concise as that, especially in the context of Hebrews.

 

[Herb Evans]

It's amazing how works based savlation is re-worded to make it acceptable to some. Conditional security is nothing more than adding self into the salvation equation instead of beleiving that the finished work of Chirst is enough.

And again the context of Hebrews is not eternal (spiritual) salvation. If we miss the first step how are we going to be able to walk the correct path? Context is king and unless we leave it in the original context misinterpretation is all but unavoidable.

OH! OH! Here it comes Jumpy's second plan of salvation that IS works based. I wonder what the mechanics are for differentiating the plan of salvation for eternity in many passages and the Faustite plan of salvation for the kingdom. Of course, the Faustite's whims.

Wjat does it say about a Gospel that is not a Gospel and those that propagate it? -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

[/b]

Can you please provide Scripture that says some of the children of Israel that left Egypt left in an "unsaved" state as you claim.

I said a mixed multitude left and NO DOUBT there were unbelieving among them, both lost and saved. In regard to the saved ones they were shut out of the promised land, which is not a type of heaven. That unbelif was not regarding salvation but in not believing the spies. -- Herb Evans

 

[Faith alone]

swaimj,

Yoiu're right - this is really for anotehr thread. But let me say that I did not say that "faith can be exercised apart from repentance." I said that we are not saved by repenting but by believing. And we need to loo kat the lexical meaning of "repent," which does not mean "to turn from sin" but to "change your mind" (about sin, Christ, whatever.)

My point is that whe nthe author refers to repentance (which he does not in Heb 3, but does in Heb 6) he is not referring to coming to Christ... necessarily.

Let's just leave it at that - I would be interersted in discussing it an the appropriate thread.

Faith Alone,
I don't agree with the theological presupposition you have revealed that faith can be exercised apart from repentance at the time of salvation. That's probably a discussion for another thread, so I digress.

On second thought, I think the Hebrews 3 passage itself refutes your theological presupposition. The phrase "take care, brethren lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God" contains BOTH the concept of faith and repentance. The present danger that some in the group might have an evil, unbelieving heart reveals that faith had either been present or had been professed earlier. The present danger that some might "depart", "turn away", "fall away" reveals that at some time in the past they had come into relationsip with God. The possibility of departing demands that its opposite, repentance, had occurred at sometime in the past. Otherwise a departure or turning away would not be possible.

Even if you disagree with this and if you believe that "faith alone" seperate from repentence is necessary for salvation then a person with an evil, unbelieving heart has a heart that is fully absent the one qualification that must be met for salvation. In this case, the individuals in the group who are being so warned are either in danger of losing their salvation (something that I think you and I agree is not possible) or they have never truly been converted. In the case of these warned individuals, I think the latter is true.

 

[Faith alone]

Faith Alone,
<snipped>
Even if you disagree with this and if you believe that "faith alone" seperate from repentence is necessary for salvation then a person with an evil, unbelieving heart has a heart that is fully absent the one qualification that must be met for salvation. In this case, the individuals in the group who are being so warned are either in danger of losing their salvation (something that I think you and I agree is not possible) or they have never truly been converted. In the case of these warned individuals, I think the latter is true.

I do not think we can "lose our salvation." But we as believers need to trust God IOT live for Him. If we do not trust in Christ as we live this life, it does affect the quality of our life and service, and therewards received.

FA

 

[Herb Evans]

Herb Evans said:
I am unclear as to with whom you disagree in this statement. We you disagreeing with me or with Faith Alone?

I was disagreeing with this statement of yours that you made to Faith alone, which at the time I did not realize that you were addressing his forum name. I thought that you were addressing the topic faith alone. Nevertheless, whoever's shoe fits, put it on. -- Herb Evans

swaimj]Faith Alone,
I don't agree with the theological presupposition you have revealed that faith can be exercised apart from repentance at the time of salvation. That's probably a discussion for another thread, so I digress.

 

[swaimj]

J. Jump has a plan of salvation for eternity and a seperate one for the kingdom? Never heard of such a thing. Probably should be discussed on a seperate thread from this one.

 

[Herb Evans]

J. Jump has a plan of salvation for eternity and a seperate one for the kingdom? Never heard of such a thing. Probably should be discussed on a seperate thread from this one.

It is on another thread. Both Jumpy and Newman both believe in two plans of salvation and are on there. They try to slip it in slowly at first. -- Herb Evans See

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=35215&goto=newpost

 

[J. Jump]

I said a mixed multitude left and NO DOUBT there were unbelieving among them, both lost and saved. In regard to the saved ones they were shut out of the promised land, which is not a type of heaven. That unbelif was not regarding salvation but in not believing the spies.

Well what we have here is Herb proving that he is like most in that he has something that he wants to believe yet has no Scriptural foundation for it, but insists that others believe like he does or they are heretics.

Sorry Herb, but I don't go off a Herb says so. You may be the brightest, most intelligent, most scholarly man on the face of the earth, but I'm still not going to believe a word you say until you come to the table with Scripture that backs up your statements.

And with this quote here you prove that you don't have any. And the reason that is, is becuase the Bible does not say such a thing. There is no Scripture recording that suggests any of the children of Israel that made the Exodus out of Egypt was unsaved. To believe otherwise is outside of the bounds of Scripture.

I hope you continue to post more and more, because while it is almost sickening to read your posts (for a variety of different reasons) with every post you put up here folks should be able to continue to see right through you. At least I hope they can, but I am sure some will not unfortunately

 

[J. Jump]

J. Jump has a plan of salvation for eternity and a seperate one for the kingdom? Never heard of such a thing. Probably should be discussed on a seperate thread from this one.

Well this is what others would like to have you believe, but a more accurate statement is Scripture has a plan for eternal (spiritual) salvation and a plan for kingdom (soulical) salvation.

This teaching really rubs people the wrong way just as it did 2,000 years ago. It got many of the apostles killed and has been attacked from the very beginning.

The Word of the Kingdom was faught against from both the liberals and the conservative religious leaders of the day, and it is no different than today. While they can't agree on much they do agree on this one message, and as you can see from some here on this board the attacks can sometime be very vicious.

And I wouldn't be surprised if human history goes long enough that the attacks could get worse, much worse.

As much as man tries to deny it we are body, soul and spirit. And God has set a plan up that deals with each aspect of our being.

And one of a number of reasons this message is so hated by the majority is that it holds people accountable. And you have two groups. One group that is "proud" of their works and thinks that everyone that doesn't have works isn't even saved, or you have the opposite group that says you can be saved, but if you don't work you will lose what you had.

Both of which are unScriptural and come from a misinterpretation of works.

If you are truly interested in learning more about the Scriptural foundation of this teaching I would be more than happy to share some resources with you.

EDIT: I would like to clear something up. Those that "try" to debunk this teaching keep trying to get people to see two "different" plans of salvation. And I have often used that terminology before to help people understand, but it's not two different "plans" of salvation. God has a plan of salvation that has different aspects to it. The Bible uses three different ways to talk about salvation: I am saved or I have been saved, I am being saved and I will be saved.

What we must do is understand what the Scripture says about I have been saved and what that means, I am being saved and what that means and I will be saved and what that means.

 

[Herb Evans]

[/b]

Well what we have here is Herb proving that he is like most in that he has something that he wants to believe yet has no Scriptural foundation for it, but insists that others believe like he does or they are heretics.

Sorry Herb, but I don't go off a Herb says so. You may be the brightest, most intelligent, most scholarly man on the face of the earth, but I'm still not going to believe a word you say until you come to the table with Scripture that backs up your statements.

And with this quote here you prove that you don't have any. And the reason that is, is becuase the Bible does not say such a thing. There is no Scripture recording that suggests any of the children of Israel that made the Exodus out of Egypt was unsaved. To believe otherwise is outside of the bounds of Scripture.

I hope you continue to post more and more, because while it is almost sickening to read your posts (for a variety of different reasons) with every post you put up here folks should be able to continue to see right through you. At least I hope they can, but I am sure some will not unfortunately

No DOUBT, you do not know what NO DOUBT means, since you Faustites are so dogmatic about your stuff that you do not realize when some one else is supposing something. The thing that is sickeneing is to minimize Christ's suffereing and death to only include eternal salvation and not the kingdom. In me, what folks see is what they get. You are just mad cause I spill the beans on you.

Now, I suppose that you have a passage that claims that all the children of Israel were saved that left Egypt? What exacly was the mixed multitude? -- Herb Evans

 

[J. Jump]

No DOUBT, you do not know what NO DOUBT means

Well unless you use the term differently than the majority of other English speaking individuals, which wouldn't surprise me in the least, it means that you believe there were unsaved folks within the children of Israel that came out of Egypt.

Now if I have mischaracterized your beliefs then just say so, corrrect my misinterpretation, I'll apologize and we can move on.

But again to say that one person that was a part of the children of Israel came out of Egypt in an unsaved state must be backed up with Scripture. You do not have Scripture to back it up, so it is mere speculation on your part and I for one do not deal in speculation. If you want to that is fine, but others should stay away from you because speculation of Scripture is dangerous.

The Holy Spirit gave us EXACTLY what we needed to know and what we didn't need to know. And for you to assume something on Scripture that is not given is pretty lofty on you part.

The thing that is sickeneing is to minimize Christ's suffereing and death to only include eternal salvation and not the kingdom.

Again let me say how glad I am that you continue to post, becuase every time you do you continue to show, like many others before you, that you don't have a clue as to what we are talking about. Oh you think you do, but you don't. But I am also sure that it won't stop you from your attacks.

In me, what folks see is what they get.

Exactly my point. And with every post you continue to show people what you really are, so keep posting away.

You are just mad cause I spill the beans on you.

Not mad at all, because there are no beans to spill. I am up front and honest and if someone wants to know something about what I believe I will share it with them, so there is no beans you can spill on me...sorry.

I do get frustrated by people like you because you don't understand what we are talking about, yet you act like you do. I get really tired of your attitude and others like you, but we have been told that that is coming.

And you will have to answer for it one day, whether you think so or not, and while that does not satisfy my flesh one iota, as I would like to lash out at you as much as you have at me and others, but that is the answer that must suffice if I am to deny myself and walk in the Spirit.

Now, I suppose that you have a passage that claims that all the children of Israel were saved that left Egypt?

It wouldn't matter to you even if there was, because you already have your mind made up as to what you think truth is, so you are going to continue to believe what you want to believe despite what Scripture says until God opens your eyes and ears, and I pray He does.

 

[Ed Edwards]

J. Jump has a plan of salvation for eternity and a seperate one for the kingdom? Never heard of such a thing. Probably should be discussed on a seperate thread from this one.

Uh, that is & has been discussed on a multitued of topics, including
this one. What is your opinion?

 

[Herb Evans]

No DOUBT, you do not know what NO DOUBT means

Well unless you use the term differently than the majority of other English speaking individuals, which wouldn't surprise me in the least, it means that you believe there were unsaved folks within the children of Israel that came out of Egypt.

Now if I have mischaracterized your beliefs then just say so, corrrect my misinterpretation, I'll apologize and we can move on. But again to say that one person that was a part of the children of Israel came out of Egypt in an unsaved state must be backed up with Scripture. You do not have Scripture to back it up, so it is mere speculation on your part and I for one do not deal in speculation. If you want to that is fine, but others should stay away from you because speculation of Scripture is dangerous.

The Holy Spirit gave us EXACTLY what we needed to know and what we didn't need to know. And for you to assume something on Scripture that is not given is pretty lofty on you part.

I believe a lot of things that I cannot prove, a trait more amongst Faustites than I. I also suppose a lot of things. What I said means that I was not being dogmatic about it. But just so you know what I based my view on, here it is:

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Heb. 4:1-6

Now, let us hear your take on what not being mixed with faith and what unbelief means here? Since you have left yourself wide open by trying to shortstop my comments. -- Herb Evans

Quote:
The thing that is sickeneing is to minimize Christ's suffereing and death to only include eternal salvation and not the kingdom.

Again let me say how glad I am that you continue to post, becuase every time you do you continue to show, like many others before you, that you don't have a clue as to what we are talking about. Oh you think you do, but you don't. But I am also sure that it won't stop you from your attacks.

You forget Sonny, that I am 70 years old and have been around a while and know what used to be taught on this until you Faustites came along with your new light doctrine. If i do not have a clue, 98 % of Independent, Fundamental, pre-millenial Baptists do not have a clue either. You folks are Johnny come latelies. You are teaching false doctrine. That is a fact not an attack. -- Herb Evans

Quote:
In me, what folks see is what they get.

Exactly my point. And with every post you continue to show people what you really are, so keep posting away.
But along with that, I will make sure that they see you. -- Herb Evans

Quote:
You are just mad cause I spill the beans on you.

Not mad at all, because there are no beans to spill. I am up front and honest and if someone wants to know something about what I believe I will share it with them, so there is no beans you can spill on me...sorry.

Well, according to one poster's post, he never heard of your doctrine, so apparently you have not been very up front about it on this thread. Share away! -- Herb Evans

I do get frustrated by people like you because you don't understand what we are talking about, yet you act like you do. I get really tired of your attitude and others like you, but we have been told that that is coming.

I even understand it better that some Faustites, who I have seen misquote what they was supposed to believe. Now, that is understandable, since it is such a convoluted and overcomplicated thing that does not appreciate the simplicity that is in Christ. The reason that you are frustrated is because not very mant folks fall for it. I was the first Christian that publicly denounced Fausticism, when Faust sent me his pre-pub book for review. -- Herb Evans

And you will have to answer for it one day, whether you think so or not, and while that does not satisfy my flesh one iota, as I would like to lash out at you as much as you have at me and others, but that is the answer that must suffice if I am to deny myself and walk in the Spirit.

Fine! I'll answer for contending for the faith that once was delivered to the saints. You will answer for the false doctrine that was delivered to you by Heretic Joey Faust. I can abide with this. -- Herb Evans

Quote:
Now, I suppose that you have a passage that claims that all the children of Israel were saved that left Egypt?

It wouldn't matter to you even if there was, because you already have your mind made up as to what you think truth is, so you are going to continue to believe what you want to believe despite what Scripture says until God opens your eyes and ears, and I pray He does.

Ah so, Dogmatic Delbert can't answer his own objection. Evade away, I have posted my scripture, since you do not have one, after all the fuss that you made. -- Herb Evans

 

[J. Jump]

I believe a lot of things that I cannot prove

Again thank you for proving my point. You have "a lot" of things that you believe that you "cannot prove" yet you insist that everyone believe like you or they are a heretic.

I mean does anything else need to be said? I don't think so.

Now, let us hear your take on what not being mixed with faith and what unbelief means here? Since you have left yourself wide open by trying to shortstop my comments.

Why do you want to hear my take on it Herb? You aren't going to believe me anyway. You are already determined that what I believe is false so why do you want me to explain a falsity to you. That makes no sense.

If i do not have a clue, 98 % of Independent, Fundamental, pre-millenial Baptists do not have a clue either.

I knew we were bound to have some common belief

But along with that, I will make sure that they see you.

If they want to see me all they have to do is ask. They don't need your biased opinions of me! Let them make up their own mind or do you have to think for everyone?

Well, according to one poster's post, he never heard of your doctrine, so apparently you have not been very up front about it on this thread. Share away!

What a load . . . Just becuase he hadn't heard of it doesn't mean I was being deceptive. You really do need to catch a clue. And when he asked I shared with him an answer. If he truly wants to know more I will share more.

The reason that you are frustrated is because not very mant folks fall for it.

Wow you must have the same superhuman powers that others on this board think they have. Sir you do not know me. Please don't act like you do. You don't have a clue.

I was the first Christian that publicly denounced Fausticism, when Faust sent me his pre-pub book for review.

Well let's all roll over and give you a cookie.

Fine! I'll answer for contending for the faith that once was delivered to the saints.

You'll have to answer for that was well, but I was talking about your attitude toward others. If you will have to answer for that whether you think you will or not.

You will answer for the false doctrine that was delivered to you by Heretic Joey Faust.

Again you show your ignorance in that you think that just because someone believes this way they must be a Faustite. Let me clear the air again. I have never met Joey Faust. And I have never read his book. I don't even own the book.

There are a couple of things that I know he teaches that I don't agree with, because James and I have discussed them.

So again just more proof from the lips of the horse that you don't know what you are talking about. But please keep posting becuase you are just continuing to mount the case against you.

Ah so, Dogmatic Delbert can't answer his own objection. Evade away, I have posted my scripture, since you do not have one, after all the fuss that you made.

You really are a funny old man. An objection was not placed in front of me to answer. I asked you for Scripture two or three times and it took a third post before you even posted any Scripture and then you only posted a Scripture that doesn't "prove" your point, but leads you to your speculation.

And there is no evading it's just called not wasting my time with someone who doesn't want to hear anyway. You believe you have the truth, so you can live with it and answer for it on that day. But don't come at me with this nonsense that I win because you don't put up a fight garbage.

 

[drfuss]

Well, now we have heard an invented pontification based nothing but Dr. Fuss' word for it. I would love to find a real Christian that desires to forfeit his salvation. Wow! -- Herb Evans

There are more members converted to the Morman religion from SBC Baptist churches than from any other denomination. To be a member of these churches, a person is supposed to be a real Christian. I assume you have heard of the SBC.