Consequences of the Warning Passages in Hebrews

[David Michael Harris]

Hi David;
I can tell you what it means to me.
Being born again is being made new by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is being saved. You cannot be indwelled by the Holy Spirit and be lost. We can only be born again by the Grace of God and it is always through faith.
Paul said;
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We cannot stand in His Grace unless we've been justified by faith.
MB

No problem there.

John 15 those who do not abide, I believe they are saved Christians but still Christians and will be saved, what say ye to that?

Christians fall into sin.

I think we are drifting a bit.

David

 

[Jarthur001]

The question is "Draw back from what into perdition"? Faith. That's the way I interpret it.

I agree. And the answer is the same..."we" do not draw back into predition.

Now why? How can the writer make this claim? The writer built his case in the verses before this. Look at the verses above in the same passage....

THE OLD WAY WAS JUST A PICTURE

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

**************
CHRIST DEATH ABROGATES THE LAW

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

**************

KEY VERSE TO ADDRESS YOU...

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


>>>NOTE: The "we" are the elect. The "all" is the time. For all of time. Not as the old, where it was needed each year. Once for all of time.

****************

THE WRITER BUILDES HIS CASE MORE......

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

>>>NOTE: He is our "Covenant LORD". God binds Myself with a covenant with His people, and will NEVER go back on His Word.

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled ((Mercyseat)) from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith (( the faith with full assurance)) without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

Therefore the writer ends by saying...We do not draw back unto perdition.
Why? BECAUSE WE CANNOT....because..

1) Christ work abrogates the old ways of mans works (LAW).
2) Christ blood was only needed once, and that one time WORKED.
3) There will not be a 3rd way..this is it (IT IS FINISHED).
4) The Covenant LORD will never go back on his Word.
5) We have full assurance in our faith.

So......
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


In Christ.......James

 

[swaimj]

I'm appealing to the old testament for a definition of chastise and a definition of punish. Do you suppose the meaning of the words changed after the cross?

The way that God treats people under the Old Covenant and the way he treats his children under the New Covenant most certainly changes. Look at the punishment that God threatens the children of Israel with in Lev 26. The punishment includes:

I will visit you with panic, with wasting disease and fever that consume the eyes and make the heart ache.

I will strike you down before your enemies

You will eat the flesh of your sons and daughters (because of hunger)

That is just a small portion of the punishments listed in that chapter.

Tell me, does God punish New Covenant believers that way today? No. This was prior to Jesus' coming and prior to the New Covenant.

Well, I think we are getting off track as far as the discussion on this thread.

My main point is that God disciplines his children as a father in the New Covenant. The discipline is for correction and for growing in righteousness. It is not punitive now nor at the judgment seat of Christ. Jesus Christ took God's wrath for sin for us in our place when he died on the cross. We will never be punished for our sin. We could never atone for any single sin that we have ever committed even if we spent eternity in hell.

 

[James_Newman]

My main point is that God disciplines his children as a father in the New Covenant. The discipline is for correction and for growing in righteousness. It is not punitive now nor at the judgment seat of Christ. Jesus Christ took God's wrath for sin for us in our place when he died on the cross. We will never be punished for our sin. We could never atone for any single sin that we have ever committed even if we spent eternity in hell.

God gave instructions for how a father is to discipline his children, and gave additional instructions for what to do if the child would not hearken to that discipline.

Deu 21:18-21
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Some believers will despise the chastening of the Lord, and this is a picture of how they will be handled. This has nothing to do with atoning for sins. What your missing is that God can raise the dead. Can God not kill a believer for sins and then raise them back up at the great white throne?

 

[Linda64]

Some believers will despise the chastening of the Lord, and this is a picture of how they will be handled. This has nothing to do with atoning for sins. What your missing is that God can raise the dead. Can God not kill a believer for sins and then raise them back up at the great white throne?

The Great White Throne Judgment is NOT for believers--it is for the UNSAVED--those who have not been washed in the blood of the Lamb.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

 

[swaimj]

James,

I am going out of town today, so I think this is a good point for me to drop out of this discussion. Suffice it to say, I think you and I disagree. Others who read the thread will have to look at the arguments advanced and decide for themselves.

God bless!

 

[James_Newman]

The Great White Throne Judgment is NOT for believers--it is for the UNSAVED--those who have not been washed in the blood of the Lamb.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

Linda, the great white throne is for the 'rest of the dead'.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

All you have to do is prove that every Christian will be reigning with Jesus in the first resurrection and you will have won the day. But this statement here, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire," is very awkward if you insist that nobody was found in the book of life at the great white throne. The only way I know to be found in that book is to be washed in the blood of the lamb.

 

[webdog]

Ed Sutton,

When I posted on this thread, I addressed the topic and a specific passage.

The reply which used the terms "Lorship Salvation" and "false doctrine" did no address my statement or advance any argument for a posititon. It characterized my comments without providing any reasoning. This is a discussion board, so why not discuss my comments rather than label my post with derogatory words (not that you did this).

If my comments stand without refutation then readers who do not post will have to consider their validity. In that sense I am glad I posted and my post serves its purpose. I am disappointed that no discussion occurred in reference to my comments, however.

I've been gone for a couple of days...

Towards the end of your comment, is exactly what LS teaches...

You see, the one who is justified shall continually live by faith. If we stop living by faith and we live in rebellion against God, we can have no confidence that we are God's child. Rather we should in fear that we are going to face God's wrath."

This is works based, and what LS teaches. I wasn't attacking you, but this teaching. If my (or anyone's) salvation were dependant on "continually" living by faith, and was judged solely on that premise, I (we)would never make it. No man can pluck us from His hand...and we are included in "no man".

 

[Charles Meadows]

There is tension in scripture. Anyone who suggests that a cursory reading of scripture yields either a clear "eternal security" or a clear "conditional security" has not read well enough. If it were not so then we would not have all this bickering.

As for my opinion...

I think the verses do in fact refer to "hellfire" and do testify to the fact that not everyone who attends our church's will someday see heaven. It seems that the verses describe some individuals who practice Christianty and have made professions of faith but who fall away. But Heb 6:7-9 seem to imply that these individuals were destined for this anyway - as if they were not true believers. In like manner the true believers here are described as not falling away.

 

[Jarthur001]

There is tension in scripture. Anyone who suggests that a cursory reading of scripture yields either a clear "eternal security" or a clear "conditional security" has not read well enough. If it were not so then we would not have all this bickering.

As for my opinion...

I think the verses do in fact refer to "hellfire" and do testify to the fact that not everyone who attends our church's will someday see heaven. It seems that the verses describe some individuals who practice Christianty and have made professions of faith but who fall away. But Heb 6:7-9 seem to imply that these individuals were destined for this anyway - as if they were not true believers. In like manner the true believers here are described as not falling away.

Hello Charles,

I could not disagree with you more.

There is a overwhelming degree of support for eternal security. Where as there are a few passages that seem to teach other wise, till you look at the passage in detail.


In Christ James

 

[Charles Meadows]

James,

I think you may have misread my meaning. Perhaps I should have been more definite. I do hold to eternal security. ButI there are obvious passages (including Heb 6:4-6, Heb 10:26 and others) which seem to speak of the ability to "lose salvation" somehow. I think the point is that those who are truly saved can never fall away - because of the nature of salvation. Hebrews 6:7-9 speaks to this.

 

[swaimj]

Hey Webdog,
Thanks for the reply.

Allow me the bad manners of quoting what I said earlier:

"It is possible that, in ten years, someone sitting here tonight, a faithful member of our church (after all, you are here on Sunday night!), might fall away from Christ. That is, you will stop worshipping Jesus, you will stop taking communion, you will sin willfully and continually and never confess it, you might become involved in drunkeness or pornography. If that occurs, I can offer no comfort that you are saved and you should not delude yourself with a false confidence. You see, the one who is justified shall continually live by faith. If we stop living by faith and we live in rebellion against God, we can have no confidence that we are God's child. Rather we should in fear that we are going to face God's wrath."

Are you saying that I should have said:

"It is possible that, in ten years, someone sitting here tonight, a faithful member of our church (after all, you are here on Sunday night!), might fall away from Christ. That is, you will stop worshipping Jesus, you will stop taking communion, you will sin willfully and continually and never confess it, you might become involved in drunkeness or pornography. If that occurs, I can assure you that you are still saved. If you have put your faith in Jesus at a point in time, you are saved and you should never have any doubt about it. It does not matter how you live. The only thing that matters is that you have confessed Christ. And if someone confronts you about your salvation and quotes Paul in Romans when he asks "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God Forbid!" Ignore that person because they are holding to the false doctrine of Lordship Salvation. They are trying to tell you that you are saved by works. You are not saved by works. You are saved by faith alone and you don't have to ever do anything to demonstrate that God has changed your life."

Help me out here Webdog. Did I get it right that time? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[webdog]

Strike two...

 

[swaimj]

Strike two, eh?!

Now I'm waiting for your next pitch! :laugh:

 

[Faith alone]

2 Timothy 2:12
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

If the second half doesn't apply to us, then neither does the first.

James,

Interesting discussion here. (I know - I'm way behind.) Have you heard of the Hebraic poetic structure very common (in both OT & NT) called a chiasm? 2 Timothy 2:11-13 is a chiasm. I like to refer to it as sandwich parallelism. The outer lines pair up, working inward. Sometimes there is a single central line which does not pair up, and which is then typically the theme of the poetry. (That does not mean that ties between lines that are not paired does not occur.)

2 Timothy 2:11-13 This saying is trustworthy:
11 For if we have died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 - if we endure, we will also reign with Him;
- - - if we deny Him, He will also deny us;
13 if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

As I've heard it described, the outer blue lines refer to general promises for those who are believers - speaking of certain guarantees for all believers. The inner red lines refer to conditional promises. His possible denial of us is referring to the BEMA seat judgment which all believers will experience.

Christ cannot deny Himself, and that is the basis of our security (eternal). Yet He is just, and will reward us based on our faithfulness. The denying of us before the Father is not interms of entrance in heaven/the kingdom. That's clear because endurance leads to reigning with Him.

Incidently, chiasmic structure is very common in the NT. It's not so helpful in this text, but is very helpful with say Romans 10:9, 10.

FA

 

[Faith alone]

Webdog, a couple of questions for you about the text.

Consider Heb 10:26: For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiveing the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacriefice for sins,

Can a person enter heaven if they have sins which are not atoned for and for which there is no atonement?

And then verse 27: but a fearful expectation of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

If a person faces God with unatoned sins, will their judgement be of their works or will it be the condemnation of their soul? If a person experiences the "fury of fire" with sins that are not atoned for, will the fire not be the fire of hell?

These are tough verses, there is no doubt. Please don't accuse me of "Lordship salvation" or "false doctrine". I have wrestled with this text and come to a conclusion with a clear conscience. If I am wrong I hope I am humble enough to learn if you can show me otherwise. I welcome a discussion of the text and its meaning but I don't care much for name-calling.

Swaimj,

Again, sorry for such late response. Not easy for me to do better these days.

FWIW, I have a real problem with the NIV's wording of a simple present tense as "go on sinning," especially without internal context to lead one to take such a step. The gnomic present tense which they assumed is extremely rare and is always accompanied by clear contextual evidence. IMO their desire to protect us from this text saying that we might lose our salvation has led to reading theology into the text. (The NIV was developed by the RCA.) It should be simply, "And if we sin deliberately (on purpose - willfully) after receiving the knowledge of the truth there no longer remains [a] sacrifice for sin."

Also, "a" above leads one to assume that "sacrifice for sins" is a reference to Christ's death. IMO it is a reference to the OT sacrifice system. (There is not an indefinite article in Greek ["a", "an"], so context helps us here. Chapter 10 is very clear, IMO that we should read this as OT sacrifice - see vss. 1, 18.)

You view the consequences in this 4th warning text in Hebrews as referring to eternal judgment. FYI, I view it as referring to severe judgment by our Lord on His children.

I do think that the author was trying to drive home the fact that since Christ had provided the ultimate sacrifice for our sins - atoning for the sins of the world - that they should ask themselves where they intended to turn if they turned their backs on Christ's "once for all" sacrifice, as they were apparently contemplating. Whether this indicates apostasy or a compromising of their commitment is difficult to say for certain. But IMO one thing that is clear is that this was not a reference by the author to the reader's sins, but to their potential lack of standing firm in their faith - trusting in Christ, as seen by the earlier context:

Hebrews 10:22, 23 us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

IOW, the author wasn't concerned about some serious sins recently committed by the readers, but rather about their wavering in their faith. Apparently some of these believers were beginning to waver on their initial "confession of hope" - which would lead one to believe that they were considering taking a step that in some manner made light of Christ's sacrifice or perhaps compromised the "once for all" aspect of His sacrifice.

FA

 

[swaimj]

Hi Faith Alone,

This statement of yours:

I do think that the author was trying to drive home the fact that since Christ had provided the ultimate sacrifice for our sins - atoning for the sins of the world - that they should ask themselves where they intended to turn if they turned their backs on Christ's "once for all" sacrifice, as they were apparently contemplating.

is one with which I agree. I think this is an accurate summary of what he is saying. For the original audience to turn from Christ, having once professed him, is to be left without a sacrifice for sin. For the modern audience today, the question it raises is: Were these people saved people who lost their salvation or unsaved people who made a false profession? To me, biblical theology demands the latter and forbids the former. However, the effect, severe judgement, would be the same either way. The application to the modern audience is that a person cannot merely make a verbal profession of faith. Faith is an ongoing commitment that changes the life.

I am now covering chapter 11 on Sunday nights. The people of faith in chapter 11 are not people who make a one-time profession, rather they are people who make a commitment and follow through with it.

 

[J. Jump]

Faith is an ongoing commitment that changes the life.

That is very true if you are speaking of the salvation of the soul. However eternal (spiritual) salvation is a one-time faith in the finished works of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, done on my behalf a sinner.

Once the Blood has been appropriated by faith eternal (spiritual) salvation is a non-issue as far as God is concerned, according to Scripture.

It is a one-time event, the results of which are everlasting.

I am now covering chapter 11 on Sunday nights. The people of faith in chapter 11 are not people who make a one-time profession, rather they are people who make a commitment and follow through with it.

Chapter 11 is about working faith that saves the soul. Unfotunately a great deal of Christendom uses this faith in reference to eternal (spiritual) salvation and to do so is taking the chapter out of its original context.

 

[Faith alone]

Hi Faith Alone,

<snipped>
For the modern audience today, the question it raises is: Were these people saved people who lost their salvation or unsaved people who made a false profession? To me, biblical theology demands the latter and forbids the former. However, the effect, severe judgement, would be the same either way. The application to the modern audience is that a person cannot merely make a verbal profession of faith. Faith is an ongoing commitment that changes the life.

I am now covering chapter 11 on Sunday nights. The people of faith in chapter 11 are not people who make a one-time profession, rather they are people who make a commitment and follow through with it.

Swaimj,

Hello. And there is actually a 3rd category - one which I'm espousing: that these are saved people, but the "severe judgment" is not about eternal life.

It certainly is true that the churches these days have many people attending who do not know the Lord. But this 3rd possibility is certainly one to consider.

FA

 

[MB]

Hi David;

No problem there.

John 15 those who do not abide, I believe they are saved Christians but still Christians and will be saved, what say ye to that?

Christians fall into sin.

I think we are drifting a bit.

David

While Salvation is a commitment it's one that has it's up's and down's. Sure we sin and sometimes drift away, but we have the Good Shepard who will come after us and correct us if necessary. If we endure this correction we are His forever more if we do not endure the correction we were never really His to begin with. The difference is some only think they are saved and the ones who are, are fully commited.

Some believe they can do as they like once saved but these aren't fully commited. When you give up all for God in this commitment you have nothing to turn back to. To me Christ is a necessity just as the food we eat or air we breathe. We cannot live with out Him. We all need to make Christ number 1 in our lives.
MB