Why are you not quoting my answer for OT Saints?
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Corporate and Individual Election for Salvation
- Thread starter Van
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Why are you not quoting my answer for OT Saints?
1 Timothy 2:6
Material false statement.
Yet another verse rewritten to conform to the bogus doctrines of Y1.
God desires all men to be saved, and Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.
Tsalagi
Member
Your vague and scripturally undocumented allusion to Abraham's individual election resulting in Israel's corporate election does not answer the questions I put to you. It's fine to just say "I don't know" instead of bristling up with hostility. I know the answers to my questions, by the way; under more friendly circumstances I would have gladly shared them, but I'm getting the distinct impression you aren't here to learn anything you don't already "know." 1 Timothy 6 regards, adios.
Sir, please quote my answer.
Yet when it comes to election you are both wrong.
Tsalagi. Israel is the only elect, and claiming election for your self is replacement theology. If Salvation was possible for old testament saints before Christ I'd like very much to see the proof of this. We all know that the Law did not save anyone.We also know men are not saved with out the blood to cover there sins. That is the blood of Christ.Old testament saints were set aside for the hearing of the gospel. Even David him self knew he was going to be in hell waiting to hear the gospel.
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore
MB
Here, because you may have lost track due to all the off topic posts by Calvinists to prevent actual biblical discussion, is the topic for the thread.
First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.
Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.
As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”
Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.
Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendants the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. Therefore the OT saints were individually chosen as Abraham was, which is on the basis of faith. But they had to wait (in Abraham's bosom) until Christ died to be made perfect. Thus they "gained approval" by faith, as Hebrews 11 says, but were not at that time transferred into Christ because Christ had not yet sacrificed Himself to provide the propitiation or means of salvation.
On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.
Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not received forgiveness, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and that salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.
And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 we see God chose what the world saw as weak and foolish, requiring those chosen to be in and therefore known by the world. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor to the world, again requiring people being chosen while living and known to the world. James 2:5.
In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is our being individually set apart in Christ which was our individual election to salvation.
First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.
Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.
As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”
Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.
Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendants the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. Therefore the OT saints were individually chosen as Abraham was, which is on the basis of faith. But they had to wait (in Abraham's bosom) until Christ died to be made perfect. Thus they "gained approval" by faith, as Hebrews 11 says, but were not at that time transferred into Christ because Christ had not yet sacrificed Himself to provide the propitiation or means of salvation.
On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.
Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not received forgiveness, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and that salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.
And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 we see God chose what the world saw as weak and foolish, requiring those chosen to be in and therefore known by the world. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor to the world, again requiring people being chosen while living and known to the world. James 2:5.
In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is our being individually set apart in Christ which was our individual election to salvation.
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If true then how come you haven't proven it with scripture? You like the Calvinist make all sorts of claims with out proof. Gentiles are never called elect this is in your imagination. You like them neglect to realize scripture was not written to the Gentiles. We were only included for Salvation. The Jews are still elect and will be dealt with again and all Israel will be saved.
You often quote from scripture things that are written to the Jews and claim it for your self this is how you think you are elect.
Paul was arrested for bringing Greeks in to the temple and desecrating it In Acts 21. When are you going to realize that Gentiles can be saved with out being elect .
MB
Because you cannot define "elect" as per the lexicons. The Greek word means "chosen by God." Full stop.
Take Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Many making up the church were Gentiles. Game set and match once again, as many verses prove you are off the track.
Notice it says "put on" This means to emulate not be elect as you try to do. We are also told to put on the righteousness of Christ. Does this mean we become Christ? No It does not, it means we should emulate or act like Christ. Acting is a lot different than claiming something we are not.
MB
Well you are pathetic. You have some truth I will admit but your like the guy who has all the feathers he can carry yet still tries to carry more than he already has. You just have to be more than you think you are. You wish to exclude the Jew and take his place.
Rev_3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
So much for replacement theology.
MB
You, you, you posts are pathetic. I am sick of posts that deny the obvious truth of scripture. I have cited verse after verse showing elect simply means "chosen of God" and is not exclusively used for Jews.
First you deny the lexicon meaning for the Greek word translated "elect" in favor of secret knowledge. Then you slice and dice scripture attempting to nullify its obvious meaning.
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