Could Christ Have Sinned? II

[JonC]

God is the source of the moral law, not its subject. God cannot lie, because He is the Truth. If God could, in some future moment* change His mind, if it were possible for Him to deny Himself, to be corrupted, then you have no real basis for your faith.

Accept it as it is written, because it is the truth. God cannot deny Himself. He is immutable. Not because He promised not to change His mind, but because He cannot.

*God is eternal, and in Heaven there is no past or future as we think of them. It is past, present, and future simultaneously existing as now.

EXACTLY. That is why it is impossible for God to lie. NOT because God is less powerful than man (ability) but because God is righteous and this is His nature.

We cannot measure the standard by the standard....that does not make sense. The standard IS the standard. And God is the Standard of righteousness. It is impossible for God to lie because God is righteous, holy, pure, immutable....because God is God.

 

[Aaron]

EXACTLY. That is why it is impossible for God to lie. NOT because God is less powerful than man (ability) but because God is righteous and this is His nature.

We cannot measure the standard by the standard....that does not make sense. The standard IS the standard. And God is the Standard of righteousness. It is impossible for God to lie because God is righteous, holy, pure, immutable....because God is God.

It's really hard to know what you think, because you don't make any real absolute statements. The Apostle, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit could say it is impossible for God to lie. You're not really saying God cannot lie. You're still saying He can; He just doesn't lie because He's righteous.

Lying is not a power. It is a corruption. But if you want to talk about sinning as if it were a power or ability, then in those terms, God does not have the power of a man to lie or to be corrupted.

 

[Larry the Logger]

Non sequitur. I could just as easily say if He had no earthly father, then he was not fully human. What other human was born of a virgin? What other human was ever divine?

He is the incorruptible God. He cannot lie.

He would have had to shed His divinity, which is impossible. 2 Timothy 2:13

Non sequitur. I could just as easily say if He had no earthly father, then he was not fully human. What other human was born of a virgin? What other human was ever divine?

He is the incorruptible God. He cannot lie.

1 Kings 22:20-23

 

[JonC]

It's really hard to know what you think, because you don't make any real absolute statements. The Apostle, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit could say it is impossible for God to lie. You're not really saying God cannot lie. You're still saying He can; He just doesn't lie because He's righteous.

Lying is not a power. It is a corruption. But if you want to talk about sinning as if it were a power or ability, then in those terms, God does not have the power of a man to lie or to be corrupted.

The part that is a "power" is not lying but assigning that to "ability". It is one thing to say that it is impossible for God to lie. It is another thing to say that God is unable to lie.

When we use the word "can" or "cannot" we are not speaking of corruption but of power. In the context of the passage (and the whole of Scripture) God's inability to lie is founded in God's nature and His righteousness. God's word is true because God does not lie. It is impossible that God's word fail or be false based on divine righteous, not divine inability.

 

[37818]

God's power excludes not* being God. God is infinitely good in all His Persons. Mark 10:18. Proverbs 9:10.

* The Word was both God and not God. John 1:1-2. "with God" and "was God." In not being God He never ceased being God. Hebrews 1:3, John 1:9-10. Mark 10:18.

 

[Larry the Logger]

He would have had to shed His divinity, which is impossible. 2 Timothy 2:13

In the context of the passage (2 Timothy 1:13-2:13), when Paul expounds on his "therefore" in verse 10 regarding the believer's need to endure, which requires faithfulness to the Lord, and reference to Numbers 23:19 which refers to God's faithfulness to His promised blessing to Israel (cursing them per Balak would mean God lied to Israel regarding His promise); impossibility to do Phiilippians 2:5-8 and Hebrews 2:15 which IS the Lord's choice of setting aside His divine nature, your "shed His divinity, which is impossible," strays way outside the context. God won't deny what He already promised, not that it is impossible to set aside His divine nature.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It was IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus Christ the God-Man to have sinned. For those who deny this fact have to explain how then Jesus could have lived about 33 years, and not have sinned even once.

 

[37818]

. . . which IS the Lord's choice of setting aside His divine nature, . . .

John 1:2, "The same was in the beginning with God." Literally "with the God," same as in John 1:1 which affirms the Word also "was God." The Word was always both someone other than God and God too. He only changed how He was "with the God" but never that He "was God." This is important to understand. Hebrews 1:3 and John 1:9-10.

 

[SavedByGrace]

He would have had to shed His divinity, which is impossible. 2 Timothy 2:13

God can never cease to be God. And Jesus Christ always IS God even after His Incarnation

 

[Dave G]

Face it, gentlemen...
It's a stalemate.

Scripture states our Saviour is both God and man;
Stop trying to figure out God being a man, and simply accept what His word tells us.

" And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and [italics] Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think [italics] above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another." ( 1 Corinthians 4:6 ).

 

[Larry the Logger]

John 1:2, "The same was in the beginning with God." Literally "with the God," same as in John 1:1 which affirms the Word also "was God." The Word was always both someone other than God and God too. He only changed how He was "with the God" but never that He "was God." This is important to understand. Hebrews 1:3 and John 1:9-10.

He did not cease being God, and I never said He did. Philippians 2:6 says the Jesus was equal with God. What do you think Philippians 2:6-8 means? Jesus made the decision to make Himself of no reputation. What reputation could He possibly be talking about if not His deity? You seem to keep ignoring that. If Jesus functioned as a man using His deity, He could not have been tempted like you and I, yet the Bible says He was-Hebrews 4:15. If He was tempted like you and me, He also had to have the choice to sin, and Phil 2:6-8 makes that very clear; as do things like the need for the Lord being filled with the Holy Spirit and His temptations in Matt 4 and Luke 4. The wooden concept ascribed to God by men who say it was impossible for Jesus to not use His deity, not be able to make a decision to sin while He was on earth, is not in the Bible.

 

[Larry the Logger]

It was IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus Christ the God-Man to have sinned. For those who deny this fact have to explain how then Jesus could have lived about 33 years, and not have sinned even once.

Your logic is flawed and your declaration is not a fact because it's not in the Bible. Living with the ability to choose to sin or not to sin, does not mean a man with no nature to sin, would have to sin over a 33 year period. Jesus was able to make the choice not to sin by understanding and knowing the Word of God, learning it from childhood until His manhood, in that time, discovering Who He was from His parents and especially from His study of Scripture and choosing to apply it. Jesus had no sin nature just like Adam started out with no old sin nature. Both had volition, choice. Adam had it much easier though than Jesus. Adam had perfect fellowship with God under perfect conditions and yet when Eve offered him the fruit from the forbidden tree, he CHOSE (sans old sin nature) to take a bite. The Lord had to grow up in a family with a tawdry public reputation, hunger, thirst, be made fun of, study and learn the Word of God (and don't you know, He was pretty knowledgeable since at 12, He blew away the scholars), meditate on it, establish and have a close relationship with His Father over time. It was no cake walk by design. And, before He went into the wilderness, God gave Him the power to overcome His temptations by filling Him with the Holy Spirit Who could use the Word of God in Jesus' memory to overcome those temptations. That was the point of His life, to be the real lamb without spot or blemish, not by the use of His deity but by the use of his volition. You continue to ignore Philippians 2:6-8, Hebrews 4:15, Matthew 4 and Luke 4 and stand on something that is not in the Bible.

 

[Larry the Logger]

As to His temptation--His testing--many have the mistaken notion that He has to be a partaker of our corruptibility, because we equate our bent to sinning as the thing that makes us subject to temptation, when, in reality, our bent to sinning is just our corruption.

How then did Adam, Lucifer and one third of the angels sin without being bent?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Your logic is flawed and your declaration is not a fact because it's not in the Bible. Living with the ability to choose to sin or not to sin, does not mean a man with no nature to sin, would have to sin over a 33 year period. Jesus was able to make the choice not to sin by understanding and knowing the Word of God, learning it from childhood until His manhood, in that time, discovering Who He was from His parents and especially from His study of Scripture and choosing to apply it. Jesus had no sin nature just like Adam started out with no old sin nature. Both had volition, choice. Adam had it much easier though than Jesus. Adam had perfect fellowship with God under perfect conditions and yet when Eve offered him the fruit from the forbidden tree, he CHOSE (sans old sin nature) to take a bite. The Lord had to grow up in a family with a tawdry public reputation, hunger, thirst, be made fun of, study and learn the Word of God (and don't you know, He was pretty knowledgeable since at 12, He blew away the scholars), meditate on it, establish and have a close relationship with His Father over time. It was no cake walk by design. And, before He went into the wilderness, God gave Him the power to overcome His temptations by filling Him with the Holy Spirit Who could use the Word of God in Jesus' memory to overcome those temptations. That was the point of His life, to be the real lamb without spot or blemish, not by the use of His deity but by the use of his volition. You continue to ignore Philippians 2:6-8, Hebrews 4:15, Matthew 4 and Luke 4 and stand on something that is not in the Bible.

Simple question. How did Jesus not sin even a single time during about 33 years when on earth. No human has or ever can go even for a few hours or minutes without sinning. Was Jesus prevented from sinning?

 

[SavedByGrace]

How then did Adam, Lucifer and one third of the angels sin without being bent?

There is not a single Scripture that teaches that Jesus Christ's human nature was like Adams completely

 

[37818]

You seem to keep ignoring that. If Jesus functioned as a man using His deity, He could not have been tempted like you and I, yet the Bible says He was-Hebrews 4:15.

You are mistaken. I simply had not addressed just His humanity and how He as a man was really tempted like us, yet without sin. The key defference being His deity.

 

[Alofa Atu]

No human has or ever can go even for a few hours or minutes without sinning.

Wow, talk about a complete misunderstnading of the Gospel, and of the Holy Ghost Himself.

The Holy Ghost empowers people to live without sin. Though persons still have choice.

For instance. I used to consume the iniquitous alcohol. The Holy Ghost gave me victory over that - completely. I do not drink any more. Ever. So it has been much more than a few hours or minutes, but ever since that time years ago.

The Holy Ghost is to do this for all of my iniquitous thoughts, speech and actions.

The people of God do not merely have imaginary victory over sin - they actually partake of it.

You really ought to change your name to ""Not Saved" by Grace" if you actually believe what you just stated, for if you cannot have actual and permanent victory, then you have no salvation - from anything, by grace or anything else.

 

[Yeshua1]

2 Tim. 2:13 doesn't say anything about what you linked it to (out of context). I also never said that Jesus "shed His divinity". I said that Jesus was tempted in His humanity to sin, not His divinity. Just as it is impossible for Deity to sink and die, but not for humanity to do so.

This verse (in context):

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.​

... is speaking about the promise of God (the Father) in Christ Jesus (the Son) to raise us from the dead if we believe, and that He is faithful to that promise (in other words His word is true, whether we believe it or not).

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.​

The promise of eternal life and the resurrection exists with Christ Jesus, even if we choose to not believe it (and so not partake in it). God, even also Jesus, is faithful to the promise and will not turn back from it, having paid the price to redeem all who will take of it.

The text you raised has nothing to do with the topic of the OP.

Ellen White stated that Jesus had our sinful nature, so your Jesus could sin, but the One in the Bible had no sin nature as us, so could not!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are mistaken. I simply had not addressed just His humanity and how He as a man was really tempted like us, yet without sin. The key defference being His deity.

He was sinless in his human nature, nothing to respond to the temptation!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Wow, talk about a complete misunderstnading of the Gospel, and of the Holy Ghost Himself.

The Holy Ghost empowers people to live without sin. Though persons still have choice.

For instance. I used to consume the iniquitous alcohol. The Holy Ghost gave me victory over that - completely. I do not drink any more. Ever. So it has been much more than a few hours or minutes, but ever since that time years ago.

The Holy Ghost is to do this for all of my iniquitous thoughts, speech and actions.

The people of God do not merely have imaginary victory over sin - they actually partake of it.

Still doesn't answer what I have said. Jesus lived about 33 years without sinning even ONCE. How did He accomplish this. Your reasoning is not the answer