Could Christ Have Sinned? II

[Iconoclast]

I don't understand the controversy here.

We Christians constantly draw a distinction in the minds of those we preach to, between the deity of Christ and the humanity of Christ. Muslims ask me: "How could God die?", "How could God be hungry?", "How could God be weary?"; to which I answer that Jesus Christ had two nature: God and man. In his humanity, he could die, suffer hunger and thirst and fatigue, though not in his deity.
It's the same answer to the question: "Could Christ have sinned?". The answer is "yes". The counter is: "How could God sin?". The reply is: "Christ, in his human nature only, could have sinned, though not in his divine nature", thus preserving the truth that God cannot be tempted with evil (Ja.1:13) yet without making a empty charade out of Jesus Christ's monumental strife and victory over sin, as a man; which makes me desire to worship him all the more.

Jesus could not sin. Never.

 

[Iconoclast]

Where is your scripture?

As God He will never sin.
As a man He could sin.

"was in ALL points tempted...

"...as WE are..."


YET
YET
YET
"... yet without sin."
Hebrews 4:15 partial

What is the "yet" there for?
Could not it be, in spite of being a man with the potential to sin, He did not.
Why is He our holy priest? Because as a man He did not sin.
He did not sin BECAUSE He is God, He did not sin because He chose not to sin.
"...nevertheless not my will but thine be done." Luke 22:42
He is God.
He is a man.

For we have not
an high priest
which cannot
be touched
with the feeling of our infirmities;
but was in all points
tempted like as we are,
yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:15

Being tempted is not sin.

 

[tyndale1946]

No I didn't. I said people tend to equate our bent to sinning as temptation, when it is just corruption.

People sin because they're corrupt. Not because they're tempted.

Aaron you could have just showed him this... Brother Glen

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

[tyndale1946]

You sin everyday.

I hear you Iconoclast, and like Paul I claim the same, now behave your bad self... Brother Glen

 

[Aaron]

That does not mean that he did not see death.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:3,4

The third from / of, what?

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Phil 2:8,9
hin these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might -- through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, < Through death ) sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest, < God hath highly exalted him, from Phil 2:9 and he inherited a name) having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they. Hebrews 1:4

What is wherefore tying together? Because, of obedience of faith, it was not possible for him to be held by it (the death) God, the Father exalted him.

Who by him <Jesus Christ Son of the Highest, born of Mary and died) do believe in God < the Father), that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21 That is how I understand 1 Peter 1:21.

Yes, Christ descended into hell. But He has an unchangeable Priesthood by virtue of the power of His endless life.

Hebrews 7:16

And that is why he is able to save us to the uttermost.

 

[percho]

Yes, Christ descended into hell. But He has an unchangeable Priesthood by virtue of the power of His endless life.

Hebrews 7:16

And that is why he is able to save us to the uttermost.

John 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 17:5 'And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;

Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Hebrews 5:5,6 so also the Christ did not glorify himself to become chief priest, but He who spake unto him: 'My Son thou art, I to-day have begotten thee;' as also in another place He saith, 'Thou art a priest -- to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;'
1 Peter 1:21 who through him do believe in God, who did raise out of the dead, and glory to him did give, so that your faith and hope may be in God.

Romans 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship;

Phil 3:21 who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

What is the order of our priesthood?

Acts 13:34,35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Who is I and who is you. Is this God the Father speaking to the Son of God? Is that Son the child who was conceived (Matt 1:20 γεννηθὲν ) in the virgin Mary out of Spirit?

 

[Larry the Logger]

The Word was God.

And, yet John 1:14 and Philippians 2:6-8.

 

[Larry the Logger]

No I didn't. I said people tend to equate our bent to sinning as temptation, when it is just corruption.

People sin because they're corrupt. Not because they're tempted.

People sin because of both corruption and temptation. Both involve choice. I know that because I know my own heart is desperately wicked (corruption) and that there are also fiery darts from Satan looking for someone sans the armor of God (temptation).

 

[Oseas3]

If Christ could have lied, He could have sinned. But if one believes Paul, it is impossible for God to lie.

JESUS did give testimony of Truth. João 8:v.46-59

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the Truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the Truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said the Jews to JESUS, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the Truth, ye believe me not.

 

[Larry the Logger]

#32 says nothing of the fact that Jesus Christ was 100% sinless during His earthly life, and the fact that if as people like yourself claim, that He "could have sinned", but cannot exaplain how He did not? The ONLY answer is that Jesus Christ, unlike anyone else, as God-Man, was "not able to sin", as He remained fully God, while fully Man, though with a perfect, sinless human nature. This seems difficult for some to grasp!

I did fully explain. Jesus used His chooser (His volition) and the power of God's Word to choose not to sin as a man and that matters. Please don't box the Savior in with your incorrect application of the doctrine of Christology a doctrine I understand and do not deny.

Please consider this. Why was God well pleased at the point of Jesus' baptism and did not announce His pleasure in Jesus to the shepherds at the point of His birth? I will submit this reason; because He was the first man with the ability to sin who did not sin because from His birth until His baptism, He instead used the knowledge of God's Word, and the subsequent knowledge of who He was. He was and is found throughout the Old Testament and He discovered that, learned that, established a relationship with His heavenly Father because of that, and used that information to choose not to sin amongst a crooked and perverse people, some faithful to God like His parents, and some not, yet with temptation from people all around Him. He did that without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is why God was pleased with Him just before His baptism. Job came close. Elihu came closer. Daniel came closer. None were qualified except One, not because He was God and functioned as God when He was on earth, but because He chose to function as a human being per Phil 2:5-9. After His baptism, He was still a man, still functioning per Phil 2 but now with the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit and His knowledge of God's Word, had the power outside of His deity to pass the wilderness experience and not give into the a fortiori temptations directly from Satan. Satan tried desperately with temptations ONLY focused at trying to get Jesus to USE His deity as a man which would have made our deliverance impossible because the Lamb of God would have had a spot or a blemish. Do you not see the greater Savior who accomplished that over the Savior who relied on deity to accomplish that, not because I say so but Scripture says so and makes it vividly clear? It's important and it matters and it does not diminish in any way, nor deny, nor argue against the passages used in the doctrine of Christology. I am convinced that Jesus is greater now than He was before His incarnation (John 1:1) as a man (John 1:14) because of His LIFE and His death and His resurrection. The wonderful personal application is that I have that same Holy Spirit indwelling me and like the Lord, I can study, learn, meditate, apply, seek relationship with God and function on God's Word, just like my Savior did when He was a man on earth even though my heart is still desperately wicked in addition to external temptations.

 

[Oseas3]

Luk_1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Mar_14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

What you quoted from Scriptures is True. But your interpretation is evil, you admit it is possible God to lie because the Word - the Scriptures - says "with God nothing shall be impossible" and "all things are possible unto Him"..

You are wrong. There is only and only one thing that IS IMPOSSIBLE God to do: TO LIE.

 

[Aaron]

John 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 17:5 'And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;

Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Hebrews 5:5,6 so also the Christ did not glorify himself to become chief priest, but He who spake unto him: 'My Son thou art, I to-day have begotten thee;' as also in another place He saith, 'Thou art a priest -- to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;'
1 Peter 1:21 who through him do believe in God, who did raise out of the dead, and glory to him did give, so that your faith and hope may be in God.

Romans 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship;

Phil 3:21 who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

What is the order of our priesthood?

Acts 13:34,35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Who is I and who is you. Is this God the Father speaking to the Son of God? Is that Son the child who was conceived (Matt 1:20 γεννηθὲν ) in the virgin Mary out of Spirit?

What's your point? That because He tasted death He was corruptible? That doesn't follow and it isn't true.

 

[George Antonios]

only if you make Jesus Christ two separate Persons, rather than natures! Jesus Christ is ONE Person, 100% fully God in His Nature, and 100% Man, in His Nature. The God-Man. It is foolish for anyone to suggest that when the devil tested Jesus Christ, that this was only done to His "Human Nature"! He IS the ONE Person, not divided! Without this being understood, people will keep on falling into the error of the possibility of Jesus Christ "sinning".

Then explain how Christ/God could die, suffer weariness, hunger, thirst, not know the day of his own second coming, etc.

 

[George Antonios]

In Calvinism, the whole storyline of the universe is God playing with action figures who have no free will and with every event being predetermined of God, so the whole thing is a meaningless, empty charade. Therefore it is no great thing for Calvinism to posit the same about Christ's temptations: they meant nothing, there was never anything at stake, it was all a show. That bloody sweat of Christ as he resisted his own will? Nope, meant nothing, just red dye, like an actor fakes it for the benefit of the audience. No sense of tragedy, no sense of awe, nothing, all a show. Carry on.

 

[Larry the Logger]

What you quoted from Scriptures is True. But your interpretation is evil, you admit it is possible God to lie because the Word - the Scriptures - says "with God nothing shall be impossible" and "all things are possible unto Him"..

You are wrong. There is only and only one thing that IS IMPOSSIBLE God to do: TO LIE.

I think Ahab would heartily disagree, even if you made your font size larger and your font color bluer. 1 Kings 22:19-23. Rahab may also have put a wrinkle in your font size.

 

[percho]

The priesthood of the believer?

Of what order is it?

Levi?

When was Christ glorified as chief priest after the order of Melchisedec, that is Christ who glorified not him self to be made chief priest ?

Acts 13:34-37
Who saw no corruption yet was raised out of the dead no more to return to corruption yet received the mercies of one, who saw corruption?

 

[AustinC]

In Calvinism, the whole storyline of the universe is God playing with action figures who have no free will and with every event being predetermined of God, so the whole thing is a meaningless, empty charade. Therefore it is no great thing for Calvinism to posit the same about Christ's temptations: they meant nothing, there was never anything at stake, it was all a show. That bloody sweat of Christ as he resisted his own will? Nope, meant nothing, just red dye, like an actor fakes it for the benefit of the audience. No sense of tragedy, no sense of awe, nothing, all a show. Carry on.

George your statement is entirely your ignorance speaking.

 

[Oseas3]

I think Ahab would heartily disagree, even if you made your font size larger and your font color bluer. 1 Kings 22:19-23. Rahab may also have put a wrinkle in your font size.

Thanks for your post. What matters is the true interpretation of Scriptures, right? By your words you suggest that Alofa Atu, author of post 11, does "heartily desagree".

You invoked and brought Ahab here knowing that he was an ungodly man, he died around year 852BC , but not his spirit.

By the way, Ahab will be cast down into the lake of fire , by the Word of God , in this END's time, according Romans 2:12: ... as many as have sinned in the law shall be Judged by the law.

Romans 2:v.5 to 12

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law - the Gentiles -shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law - the Jews - shall be Judged by the law;

 

[Aaron]

Why was God well pleased at the point of Jesus' baptism and did not announce His pleasure in Jesus to the shepherds at the point of His birth? I will submit this reason; because He was the first man with the ability to sin who did not sin because from His birth until His baptism, He instead used the knowledge of God's Word, and the subsequent knowledge of who He was. He was and is found throughout the Old Testament and He discovered that, learned that, established a relationship with His heavenly Father because of that, and used that information to choose not to sin amongst a crooked and perverse people, some faithful to God like His parents, and some not, yet with temptation from people all around Him. He did that without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is why God was pleased with Him just before His baptism. Job came close. Elihu came closer. Daniel came closer. None were qualified except One, not because He was God and functioned as God when He was on earth, but because He chose to function as a human being per Phil 2:5-9. After His baptism, He was still a man, still functioning per Phil 2 but now with the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit and His knowledge of God's Word, had the power outside of His deity to pass the wilderness experience and not give into the a fortiori temptations directly from Satan. Satan tried desperately with temptations ONLY focused at trying to get Jesus to USE His deity as a man which would have made our deliverance impossible because the Lamb of God would have had a spot or a blemish. Do you not see the greater Savior who accomplished that over the Savior who relied on deity to accomplish that, not because I say so but Scripture says so and makes it vividly clear? It's important and it matters and it does not diminish in any way, nor deny, nor argue against the passages used in the doctrine of Christology. I am convinced that Jesus is greater now than He was before His incarnation (John 1:1) as a man (John 1:14) because of His LIFE and His death and His resurrection. The wonderful personal application is that I have that same Holy Spirit indwelling me and like the Lord, I can study, learn, meditate, apply, seek relationship with God and function on God's Word, just like my Savior did when He was a man on earth even though my heart is still desperately wicked in addition to external temptations.

At what point was Jesus not God?

At no point.

At no point was the uncorruptible God able to lie.

 

[Larry the Logger]

At what point was Jesus not God?

At no point.

At no point was the uncorruptible God able to lie.

Then Satan was a complete doofus and you should laugh at him for believing Jesus, as human, was corruptible, unless God, Jesus and Satan were all in on a big scam. But moreso, we should erase Philippians 2:5-9 from our Bibles, or we should consider it as true and consider how much greater the Lord is because He chose to be born with a volition that could choose to sin just like you, and yet He chose not to do so. You ought to consider why that is important instead of clinging to the term "incorruptible." Our Savior is greater than John 1:1. 1 Corinthians 15 reminds us why that is so.