Covenant Theology

[Yeshua1]

The difference is:

"Didn't we have huge threads a couple of months ago in which you said God does not know the future actions of his free creatures (ie sins), because if he did then it means he determined them????"

You claimed I said God does not know the future actions of individuals, i.e. sins. He can choose to know they will sin, predestining those sins in the perfection of His knowledge. Jesus knew Peter would sin, i.e. do things that would earn wrath if not covered by God's grace.

We have been over this ground before. If God causes a person to sin, He may not punish that person for his or her "non-volitional" i.e. predestined sin. We know that God is just and this seems just to me, but it certainly is based on speculative rationalism.

Yes, God did not cause Adam to sin, but He did arrange the fall, so I agree with Pink on his assessment. The fall was part of God predetermined plan, but, and this is key, the plan was to allow Adam to volitionally sin, not compel him to do so. God provided the opportunity, i.e. tree in the garden, but He allowed Adam to choose to eat the fruit. Therefore, it is consistent with my understanding of God's justice to punish Adam for his volitional sin. And as a consequence of that just punishment the many were made sinners.

Next you referred to the "redeeming work of the Lamb" but perhaps did not mean that the phrase refers to our individual redemption. I read it as meaning our individual redemption. I certainly did not read it as asking the question did God cause the fall. The answer is God arranged the fall, but did not compel or predestine Adam choosing to sin.

Calvinism as you know does consider the "redeeming work of the Lamb" to be the redemption of elect individuals chosen before creation.
I expect you cannot say you disagree.

Lastly you do not agree with the last statement if you agree with Calvinism. Calvinism says we are saved by grace and given faith, so our faith does not provide our access to God's grace.

Does God merely react to what He foresees, or is He active, ordaining before the choice is even made?

 

[Van]

So you would say God did not know FOR SURE that Adam would sin? Because if he knew for sure, the that would mean he determined/caused it?
...Just that he very likely would? ...and based on this very likely scenario, he prepared the Lamb?

Why not address what I did say? You keep rewriting my position so as to change it. Since you rarely get it right I must assume you misrepresent my position on purpose. Care to "guess again?"

I would say redemption of elect individuals would be one aspect of the "redeeming work of the lamb." But not necessarily implied every time the phrase is used. I was basically just referring to Jesus Death on the cross...and how it was planned for if God did not also plan the fall.

Why not speak clearly rather than in code that can mean two or more things, so you can shuck and jive? Yet again, according to Calvinism Christ's death on the cross was the redeeming work of the Lamb, redeeming the Elect. Not my position so yet another effort at misrepresentation. Care to "guess again?"

Notice 12 Strings says God did not plan the fall? Ask yourself why he misrepresents by my views and Calvinism? Ask yourself why God would plan a redemption from the fall without planning for the fall?

I can agree with it, in that "OUR" faith comes from God, and that faith is how we receive the righteousness of Christ.

No you don't. Calvinism says only those altered by "irresistible grace" the "I" of the Tulip are able to come to faith, and unable not to come to faith. Thus, according to Calvinism, God causes the elect to come to faith. Therefore we are saved by grace, then given faith. Our faith, according to Calvinism, is not ours, it is a gift from God. However scripture teaches we are saved by grace through faith, so our faith provides our access to saving grace.

When you enter a room through a door, do you go through the door before you enter the room? Of course. So faith precedes the grace in which we stand. Calvinism has it backwards yet again.

So the issue is not that the Bible teaches God had a plan of redemption before creation, because it does. The issue is that Calvinism rewrites the plan not according to scripture but very nearly the opposite of scripture, reversing the order of things making scripture to no effect.

Lets take redemption. Are we redeemed when Christ died or when God puts us spiritually in Christ. Can anyone pick one of these two positions? My guess would be no one will say such and such a verse or passage teaches one or the other of these two views.

 

[Van]

Does God merely react to what He foresees, or is He active, ordaining before the choice is even made?

Does God punish sinners for the sins He predestines?

Tick tock

 

[12strings]

Why not address what I did say? You keep rewriting my position so as to change it. Since you rarely get it right I must assume you misrepresent my position on purpose. Care to "guess again?"

I keep guessing, but apparently I can't get it right...I don't know why you have to assume those who question your views are misrepresenting you on purpose, rather than simply trying to make sense of it and restate it in our own words so we can better understand it.

What you have said:

He can choose to know they will sin, predestining those sins in the perfection of His knowledge. Jesus knew Peter would sin...If God causes a person to sin, He may not punish that person for his or her "non-volitional" i.e. predestined sin.

-Peter's Predestined sin = Not punished. Got it.

God did not cause Adam to sin, but He did arrange the fall...it is consistent with my understanding of God's justice to punish Adam for his volitional sin.

-Adam's Volitional free sin, not predestined = Punished by God. Got it. This makes sense so far. (except the "He did arrange the fall." part, which is addressed below)

BUT...You also said these:

I accept the idea of Calvinists that if God knows with certainty what we will choose to do, that choice is predestined.

and...

Jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world as the Lamb of God. Thus the redeeming work of the Lamb was planned for before the Fall.

So that raises my original question...DID GOD KNOW ADAM WOULD SIN?
-If yes, then according to your view, was it not predestined, and therefore should not be punished?
-If no, then how could God plan for redemption if he did not know if the fall would happen?

THE ABOVE IS MY PRIMARY QUESTION...ALL THE OTHER STUFF BELOW IS SIDE ISSUES:

Why not speak clearly rather than in code that can mean two or more things, so you can shuck and jive? Yet again, according to Calvinism Christ's death on the cross was the redeeming work of the Lamb, redeeming the Elect. Not my position so yet another effort at misrepresentation. Care to "guess again?"

-I never said this was your position.

Notice 12 Strings says God did not plan the fall? Ask yourself why he misrepresents by my views and Calvinism? Ask yourself why God would plan a redemption from the fall without planning for the fall?

-This is exactly my question...How did God plan the fall if he did not know about/cause (same in your view, correct) Adam's sin?

 

[Alive in Christ]

The problem Alive in Christ with your new covenant/old covenant rant with bullet points is that it doesn't understand what the new covenant is, who it is for and what it's purpose is.

Thomas15...

1st of all, I have done absolutely no "ranting" of any sort on this thread. I have no idea where you got that.

Regarding the bullet points in my previous post, (post 113) I am firmly, and scripturally convinced that they represent the truth regarding covenant theology.

God bless.

 

[Iconoclast]

Scott Hahn is probably the best known modern theologian on this topic

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Alive in Christ]

33ad....

Scott Hahn is probably the best known modern theologian on this topic

Well, to be honest with you, I dont think that anyone tainted by Catholicism is qualified to give ANY spiritual advice to ANYONE.

Its kinda like giving arsenic to a thirsty man.

 

[Van]

So that raises my original question...DID GOD KNOW ADAM WOULD SIN?
-If yes, then according to your view, was it not predestined, and therefore should not be punished?
-If no, then how could God plan for redemption if he did not know if the fall would happen?

Did God know with certainty that Adam would sin when and where and why he did so? He knew that was the likely outcome of the circumstance He had arranged, but God allowed Adam to sin and did not predestine Adam to sin when and where and why he did.

So the answer is no and therefore your follow up question is how could God plan for a contingent action? God does this all the time. If we do this, He will do that. If we choose to do something else, He will do something else too.

Note how this view differs from Calvinism where God predestines whatsoever comes to pass. Calvinism teaches God predestines our sins, yet is not the author of our sins. This is simply irrational absurdity.

So once again, I have explained my view of scripture, so lets see some accurate "got it" response.

How did God plan the fall if he did not know about/cause (same in your view, correct) Adam's sin?

God did plan for the fall. He arranged it, but allowed Adam to volitionally sin. Therefore God knew Adam's sin was highly likely but not a certainity. Adam could have chosen not to sin when He did choose to sin. Therefore punishment for the volitional sin is just.

 

[Van]

According to Covenant Theology, the reformed view, not the biblical AIC view, God formulated a plan of redemption including choosing a Redeemer, and [corporately] those the Redeemer would redeem. The second person of the Trinity was chosen to be the Lamb of God before creation, thus Christ was foreknown as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20. Those to be redeemed were chosen, individually according to the mistaken reformed view, but corporately according to the balance of scripture, because our individual election occurs during our lifetime after we have lived without mercy.

The plan of redemption is revealed in scripture and all the pieces fit if Ephesians 1:4 is understood to refer to our corporate election, as the target group of God's redemption plan.

The Redemption offered by Christ, the Lamb of God, redeems us from our fallen state, in which we were conceived. Therefore God's plan of redemption included planning for and arranging the fall, but God did not cause or in any way predestine Adam's sin, He allowed Adam to sin of his own volition. Therefore the consequence of Adam's sin, that the many were made sinners, is just.

 

[TCGreek]

What we see in the pentateuch and the prophets are detailed and specific covenants. What the reformed offer is a covenant concept that tries to offer a biblical interpretation and justification to their pre-suppositions.

I do not believe that anyone untrained in covenant theology could start an intense study of the Bible and after a time come up with what is now called reformed covenant theology in all it's fascinating details. The concept does not really appear in any recongnizable form prior to the second generation reformers.

The untrained person is not suppose to. We must all continue to wrestle with the text of Scripture, rightly handling the word of truth. Biblical theology is lifelong.

I wonder what doctrine or set of doctrine will suddenly jump off the page at the untrained.

Does Scripture really expect the untrained to figure everything out at their first reading, second reading, third reading, and so on? I believe you know the answer to this question.

 

[TCGreek]

We are not discussing dispensationalism, we are discussing covenant theology. The question is are the reformed covenants, especally the covenant of redemption biblically based?

I say that they are not. I happen to be a dispensationalist because I believe that that school is the most biblical of the various offerings. But it isn't an either/or (covenant/dispensationalist) situation.

Yes, they are biblically based.

 

[12strings]

Did God know with certainty that Adam would sin when and where and why he did so? He knew that was the likely outcome of the circumstance He had arranged, but God allowed Adam to sin and did not predestine Adam to sin when and where and why he did.

So the answer is no and therefore your follow up question is how could God plan for a contingent action? God does this all the time. If we do this, He will do that. If we choose to do something else, He will do something else too.

So once again, I have explained my view of scripture, so lets see some accurate "got it" response.

Got it! Thanks for the clarifications. I do disagree with parts of it, of course, mostly the part where God doesn't know stuff, but I think I understand what you are saying better now.

God did plan for the fall. He arranged it, but allowed Adam to volitionally sin. Therefore God knew Adam's sin was highly likely but not a certainity. Adam could have chosen not to sin when He did choose to sin. Therefore punishment for the volitional sin is just.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Van]

Anyone who studies the topic of redemption will conclude the plan was formulated before creation. You do not have to be a scholar, but simply be able to read English translations like the NASB, NET, HCSB, NKJV and ESV. On the other hand, no one would come up with the reformed understanding of God's plan of redemption because it is backwards, with individual election occurring unconditionally rather than through faith in the truth as taught by 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[Yeshua1]

Does God punish sinners for the sins He predestines?

Tick tock

adam freely chose to sin against God...

God warned that he would be getting judged by holy god if he took that route..

What straw man were you building here?......

 

[Yeshua1]

Anyone who studies the topic of redemption will conclude the plan was formulated before creation. You do not have to be a scholar, but simply be able to read English translations like the NASB, NET, HCSB, NKJV and ESV. On the other hand, no one would come up with the reformed understanding of God's plan of redemption because it is backwards, with individual election occurring unconditionally rather than through faith in the truth as taught by 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Gods Election MUST precede faith though, as its due to god choosing us in christ beforehand, that sinners will receive from God the grace needed to place faith in christ to get saved!

 

[Winman]

Gods Election MUST precede faith though, as its due to god choosing us in christ beforehand, that sinners will receive from God the grace needed to place faith in christ to get saved!

Your view is the very thing 2 Thes 2:13 refutes;

2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This scripture says we are chosen through belief (faith) of the truth, so this refutes your view and shows it error.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Your view is the very thing 2 Thes 2:13 refutes;

2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This scripture says we are chosen through belief (faith) of the truth, so this refutes your view and shows it error.

Yes this is but a long linty of scripture that serves to teach the doctrine of election with romans 9 being the most extensive treatment of the subject.....so what?

 

[Yeshua1]

Your view is the very thing 2 Thes 2:13 refutes;

2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This scripture says we are chosen through belief (faith) of the truth, so this refutes your view and shows it error.

those whom God foreknew, he has predestined to being confirmed into the image of Christ!

Those who have the right to be calle dchildren of god, not duee to the will of man, but the Will of God!

 

[Winman]

those whom God foreknew, he has predestined to being confirmed into the image of Christ!

Those who have the right to be calle dchildren of god, not duee to the will of man, but the Will of God!

It is very simple, the scriptures say we are elect according to the foreknowledge of the Father. 2 Thes 2:13 tells us we were chosen from the beginning through belief of the truth. Simple, God could foresee who would believe and chose these persons.

But faith must precede election, as we are chosen through belief of the truth. Your view is error.

 

[Van]

adam freely chose to sin against God...

God warned that he would be getting judged by holy god if he took that route..

What straw man were you building here?......

The question is: Does God punish sinners for the sins He predestines? Yeshua1 did not answer the question.

Tick Tock