Yet another straight-up denial of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Just read it folks. Individual election must be through faith in the truth.
Calvinist has it backwards.
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Covenant Theology
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Yet another straight-up denial of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Just read it folks. Individual election must be through faith in the truth.
Calvinist has it backwards.
Total fiction! Calvinism's doctrine of election is bogus. Our individual election occurs during our lifetime, as taught by 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Romans 9 teaches men can will to be saved, teaching total spiritual inability is a fiction too. This is not a complicated subject requiring an extensive treatment, it is simple and straightforward. Calvinism has it backwards.
12 Strings said:
Van and I differ slightly as to God's foreknowledge. I believe God could infallibly foresee who would believe on him and thus choose or elect these persons. Van calls this view God looking into a "crystal ball", but I believe my view is supported when God said he knew Jeremiah before he formed him in the womb.
God did not cause Adam and Eve to sin, God did not even tempt Adam and Eve to sin. God very sternly warned Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree of knowledge and good and evil they would surely die. That is a WARNING, not a temptation.
There can be no love without trust and obedience. God had to allow man to both trust his word, and to give man the chance to obey and thus willingly love him. God in his foreknowledge already infallibly knew Adam and Eve would sin, and had already planned a way to redeem man, even before he sinned.
Foreknowledge answers how God could know men would sin and provide a redeemer, yet God is not the cause of sin. Besides making perfect sense, it is what the scriptures actually say.
Really!?! :laugh:
Lets look at some scripture:
Ephesians 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ
Irrational Absurdity
Calvinism is based on taking scripture out of context to make a fictional argument.
This election is corporate, the plan for the target group of God's plan of redemption includes our adoption, our bodily resurrection at Christ's second coming.
This election was of appostles, during their lifetime, and has nothing to do with God's corporate election before creation. Thus a bogus reference.
The word translated "ordained" is tassio in the Greek and refers to an appointment by mutual consent, therefore those that took Paul's direction were appointed to eternal life, and therefore following that direction, they believed.
Here the idea of "obtaining salvation" is to "live together with Him" at His second coming. In other words, once you are set apart in Christ, even if you physically die before He comes again, it does not matter because "whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him."
Calvinism is based on taking scripture out of context to make a fictional argument.
LOL.... again really?!?
l can see that your presuppositions are firmly in place!:laugh:
Calvinism is based on taking scripture out of context to make a fictional argument.
Statements like this are not even worth my time.... they merely attack without substantive backup & merit. your entire point is always to go on the attack rather than debate.
Ask yourself why that is... it might be enlightening. :smilewinkgrin:
l can see that your presuppositions are firmly in place!:laugh:
Calvinism is based on taking scripture out of context to make a fictional argument.
Statements like this are not even worth my time.... they merely attack without substantive backup & merit. your entire point is always to go on the attack rather than debate.
Ask yourself why that is... it might be enlightening. :smilewinkgrin:
More fiction (and a generalized taint so), but still waiting for the answer to a simple question, does God punish sinners for the sin He predestines?
Tick tock
More fiction, ignoring that I provided "substantive backup" by demonstrating how the verses cited were taken out of context.
Your post is simply another generalized taint so, providing no enlightenment.
My point is always the same, Calvinism has absolutely no actual support in scripture for the TULI. Romans 9:16 teaches men will to be saved, thus the T is bogus. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches our individual election is through faith in the truth, thus the U is bogus. 1 John 2:2 teaches Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, thus the L is bogus. And Matthew 13:1-26 teaches men can respond with joy to the gospel yet fall away, therefore the gospel call is resistible, making the I bogus. Nuff said.
Pitchback
You sir, are slandering me. I claimed the Plan of Redemption, formulated before the foundation of the world, has biblical support. I provided specific scriptures, including 1 Peter 1:19-20 and Ephesians 1:3-4. I supported the concept of a covenant or agreement with Jesus indicating He was sent by the Father and saying He was doing the Father's will. Therefore you claim that the Covenant of Redemption has not biblical support is false.
Then you post the outrageous fiction that I have bashed OSAS. No quote will be forthcoming. The charge is pure slander and demonstrates your lack of commit to truth.
You sir, are slandering me. I claimed the Plan of Redemption, formulated before the foundation of the world, has biblical support. I provided specific scriptures, including 1 Peter 1:19-20 and Ephesians 1:3-4. I supported the concept of a covenant or agreement with Jesus indicating He was sent by the Father and saying He was doing the Father's will. Therefore you claim that the Covenant of Redemption has not biblical support is false.
Then you post the outrageous fiction that I have bashed OSAS. No quote will be forthcoming. The charge is pure slander and demonstrates your lack of commit to truth.
So God does not predestine whatsoever comes to pass including sin? If God knows we are going to sin for certain, and his knowledge is perfect, how is it that those foreseen with certainty sins are not predestined?
More dismissive evasion of the truth. I never bashed OSAS, and I provided biblical support for the well accepted view that God formulated His redemption plan before the foundation of the world.
Yet another attempt at defending Calvinism with irrational absurdity. God predestines all things yet our temptations are not predestined. Got it.
Calvinism rewrites the bible to pour the man-made doctrine into the text.
Folks, here are the Biblical answers to the questions:
God does not punish sinners for the sins He predestines because that would be unjust.
It is often claimed God does not "tempt" but the same word is also translated "test" and so the Biblical answer is God does not put people in circumstances for ungodly purposes but for godly purposes. James tells us Satan, the World and our Flesh tempt us, i.e. try to lead us off the righteous path of God.
Reformed Covenant Theology is a mistaken view of scripture, but God did formulate the plan of redemption before the foundation of the world, and therefore He "foreknew" corporately those redeemed, and Christ being put to death by the predetermined plan was according to His foreknowledge of God's plan of redemption.
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Yet another attempt at defending Calvinism with irrational absurdity. God predestines all things yet our temptations are not predestined. Got it.
Calvinism rewrites the bible to pour the man-made doctrine into the text.
Folks, here are the Biblical answers to the questions:
God does not punish sinners for the sins He predestines because that would be unjust.
It is often claimed God does not "tempt" but the same word is also translated "test" and so the Biblical answer is God does not put people in circumstances for ungodly purposes but for godly purposes. James tells us Satan, the World and our Flesh tempt us, i.e. try to lead us off the righteous path of God.
Reformed Covenant Theology is a mistaken view of scripture, but God did formulate the plan of redemption before the foundation of the world, and therefore He "foreknew" corporately those redeemed, and Christ being put to death by the predetermined plan was according to His foreknowledge of God's plan of redemption.
problem is the bible does NOT support your views!