OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Again correct and very perceptive.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Dead Believers
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
Again correct and very perceptive.
It's separation. I can't think of a better definition than Col. 2:13 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,"
Notice we were once dead (separated from God due to "our" sins, btw)...and then were made alive (in Christ) while having been forgiven of ALL our sins (past, present and future). Being born again is a once for all time event. If a believer died each time they sinned, they would need to be reborn again and again. I always thought you held to OSAS...so your view has my head spinning.
No believer will ever lose their salvation; in that sense they are always "alive unto Christ." However it is evident that sin separates us from God.
Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
The Lord will not even hear the prayers of those who have sin in their hearts.
I would say that is separation. It is not loss of salvation. It is not that Christ has left them. But the fellowship has been broken. As long as sin is present there is a separation. Until that sin is repented of and confessed that fellowship will not be restored. Your prayers will go no higher than your ceiling (if even that high).
Sin causes separation. There is no way around that. It is a Biblical fact. How can you deny something so basic in Scripture?
Last edited by a moderator:
I never said Jesus would not leave us or forsake us. You are putting words in my mouth. I said that would never happen.
If there isn't an element of separation because of sin, then John writing 1John 1:9 was an exercise in futility:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
We were separated in our relation to our Saviour by sin. Confession of that sin brought forgiveness and cleansed us from all unrighteousness. Now that relationship, which was once broken, has now been restored. We were once separated by sin. Now that separation has been restored. There is the teaching in a nutshell.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I personally perceive that you are not far from the truth DHK. Are we not as believers to reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin? How can we reckon ourselves to be separated from sin if in fact we cannot help but sin or by necessity continue in sin? Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
First, please drop the defensiveness. I never put words in your mouth, I was reiterating that which we both know to be true.
Second, please show us from 1 John 1:9 where we, or any believer for that matter is spiritually dead. Being cleansed of unrighteousness is not being born again, what would be needed if one dies spiritually.
Third, I addressed your question of what dead means from Scripture in post #22
To the above bolded...the power of the Holy Spirit living within us...not the notion we have no sin nature.
"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man, and God is faithful...He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but when you are...He will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it" 1 Cor. 10:13
Last edited by a moderator:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I believe I would agree with your remark. :thumbsup:
You and I do in fact have a developed sin nature as do all that have reached the age of accountability. I would simply ask you what is the evidence in ones life that would indicate the power of the Holy Spirit is indeed working inside of us and that we are indeed dead unto that nature? How might one prove it to ones self and to others that one has indeed reckoned themselves to be dead unto sin, and set aside the notion of deception effectively?
Nothing can separate us (believers) from the love of Christ. When we sin as believers, we do not lose our spiritual life in Christ, which is what separation means. What we lose is the blessings God wants to give us as obedient children. Not only do we lose His blessings, but we receive His chastisement. But I see nothing in scripture that says a born again child of God is ever separated from Him.
Gup20
Active Member
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Sin separated us from God. But when we were "born again" or believed, we became spiritually alive. We were not made righteous by our ability to obstain from sin, or by any works, so it is foolishness (according to scripture) to think that we can lose our righteousness by our works.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Are you guys so foolish? Having had our relationship to God restored by Faith in Jesus Christ, are you going to now say that we are separated again from him by our actions - by our sin?
Since we didn't earn our salvation, it was a gift. God doesn't take his gifts back.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 11:29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
It doesn't get any clearer than that. We are free from the law of sin and death. But just in case you did miss it:
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
This verse says that God condemned sin to the flesh. This means that - even if our flesh sins, our spirits are alive because sin is banished to the flesh. We who are alive in Christ are never spiritually dead because our sin - our works - are condemned in our flesh and have no effect on our spirit.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Sin separated us from God. But when we were "born again" or believed, we became spiritually alive. We were not made righteous by our ability to obstain from sin, or by any works, so it is foolishness (according to scripture) to think that we can lose our righteousness by our works.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Are you guys so foolish? Having had our relationship to God restored by Faith in Jesus Christ, are you going to now say that we are separated again from him by our actions - by our sin?
Since we didn't earn our salvation, it was a gift. God doesn't take his gifts back.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 11:29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
It doesn't get any clearer than that. We are free from the law of sin and death. But just in case you did miss it:
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
This verse says that God condemned sin to the flesh. This means that - even if our flesh sins, our spirits are alive because sin is banished to the flesh. We who are alive in Christ are never spiritually dead because our sin - our works - are condemned in our flesh and have no effect on our spirit.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Not according to Scripture. Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: You are referring to Paul’s personal testimony of assurance. If you desire his assurance, you are going to have his conscience. Ro 9:1 ¶ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,”
HP: There is not one verse in all of Holy Writ that states loss of rewards is a punishment for sin, for believer or non believer. Eternal separation from God is the Scriptural punishment for sin. 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
HP: If there was one truth in Scripture it is ; sin separates us from God.
Let Scripture interpret Scripture...
Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
A truly righteous person doesn't rely on what he does...but on what was done for him.
Last edited by a moderator:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
GUP 20, Amy, you both are correct. There is nothing so pathetic as a professing Christian who makes a liar out of his Savior!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I have certainly done no such thing.
Gup20
Active Member
Ezekiel is talking about the righteousness of The Law, and not the righteousness of Faith.
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ
Paul's personal testamony of assurance:
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Seems like you are stuck on The Law. There is only one truth in the Bible -
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
HP: Did Jesus have one foot in the law and one foot in grace therefore eliminating grace Amy?
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?....or 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Did the Apostle John have one foot in the law and one foot in grace thereby effectively eliminating grace Amy?
HP: Did Jesus have one foot in the law and one foot in grace therefore eliminating grace Amy?
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?....or 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Did the Apostle John have one foot in the law and one foot in grace thereby effectively eliminating grace Amy?