Dead Believers

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: If sin never separated a believer from God, why must the believer have a mediator, an advocate. What is the purpose of an advocate if there is no sin that separates the believer from God? Please answer.
I John 2:1

HP: I should have answered this question as well. I believe with you that sin separates the believer from God. In such a state all is not lost UNTIL one passes from this world to the next still separated by sin. Certainly we need an Advocate in this world if and when we sin, but no forgiveness is promised as we stand before God in the next in judgment unless we have taken care of the sin question in this world.

So we differ in that you have presented a view that has a believer, you say is separated or dead to God, yet in right standing before Him if in fact he was ever saved. OSAS. I say that no man, regardless of how he has stood in the past, can hold any hope out for entrance into the heavenly kingdom subsequent to the judgment that has not cleared up sins committed in this life while still alive. If a believer sins, one that at one time had a certain hope of eternal life, yet does despite that hope and willingly transgresses against known commandments of God, refusing to repent and turn from those sins in faith, such a one will find out one of two things at the judgment. Either such a one was deceived from the beginning, (which was Brother Bob’s position) or one simply turned from their faith making shipwreck of their faith. I happen to believe either one of those positions are distinct possibilities. One thing is for certain. Without fellowship with God currently and in good standing in this life, hope in eternal salvation is simply misguided hope.

To say that one can be without fellowship with God in this world, dead to God, yet somehow find themselves alive to God via OSAS, is simply a contradictory position. So far no one believing in OSAS has agreed with your stated position. You might want to ask yourself why.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Hevenly if you sin and are out of fellowship with God and want to be right again....do you have to be reborn again in your understanding? If not why do you say believer loose it if they die that way? If God takes away His spirit from your heart you don't belong to Him agreed? So if you sin"darkness" and what to be in the light you need to be reborn of the spirit??

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: HP, if you sin and are out of fellowship with God and want to be right again....do you have to be reborn again in your understanding?

HP: I will let you call it whatsoever you desire, but I believe you will have to do your first works over in order to receive forgiveness for sins subsequent to salvation.

JK: If not why do you say believer loose it if they die that way?

HP: If they die in state in which they have not repented, God says that all that do so are in danger of hell fire. No one loses anything until they stand before God in judgment and find out they have not continued to the end in obedience which includes repenting for their sins.

JK: If God takes away His spirit from your heart you don't belong to Him agreed?

HP: “Any man that hath not the Spirit of God is none of His.”

JK: So if you sin"darkness" and what to be in the light you need to be reborn of the spirit??

HP: If a believer that has once been saved and honestly turned from their sins and sins again, they need to repent in order to have fellowship restored. If they continue till the end without obedience, which includes repentance and turning from sin, they have no hope of eternal life that will prove in the end to be eternally secure. They either were never saved from the beginning or they made shipwreck of their faith. Either way they will not be spending eternity with God.

 

[Jedi Knight]

"they need to repent in order to have fellowship restored." Do they need to be REBORN to be back in fellowship? This is like math,if you say no,so whats the different if they have the spirit when they die?? If anyone hath NOT the spirit he is not His. Its math in very simple ad and subtract.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: "they need to repent in order to have fellowship restored."

JK: Do they need to be REBORN to be back in fellowship? This is like math,if you say no,so whats the different if they have the spirit when they die?? If anyone hath NOT the spirit he is not His. Its math in very simple ad and subtract.

HP: You can choose the words you like. Scripture speaks clearly of 'doing ones first works over.' It does not say ‘reborn’ that I know of, so I prefer to use Biblical terms as best I can. You call it whatever you like, but Jesus said,
Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” “All” is a very inclusive word.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Born Again is a supernatural work and is is necessary to fellowship with God.

 

[steaver]

Jedi;
"they need to repent in order to have fellowship restored." Do they need to be REBORN to be back in fellowship? This is like math,if you say no,so whats the different if they have the spirit when they die?? If anyone hath NOT the spirit he is not His. Its math in very simple ad and subtract.

Fellowship and salvation are two seperate issues in scripture. When one confuses the two then this is what happens, questions arise and attempts at answers end up making no sense.

Concerning salvation we read this from Hebrews 6;

"For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame."

Is "falling away" the same as "breaking fellowship"? Those who think they are the same can explain why they believe they are the same.

 

[steaver]

Jedi;
Born Again is a supernatural work and is is necessary to fellowship with God.

Amen! :thumbs:

 

[Jedi Knight]

questions arise and attempts at answers end up making no sense. Thanks for the complement:laugh: I see a double standard born again and fellowship,but you guys cannot reconsile OSAS. I don't have questions on this issue....just debating this out as others do. But if you like I will resolve to say"The Force is strong with this one". :wavey: And let it B:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: Born Again is a supernatural work and is is necessary to fellowship with God.

HP: Continued obedience is indeed a work accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit, but is not accomplished apart from the voluntary will of man. Such voluntary obedience is necessary for fellowship and must be continued until the end to be found in him at the judgment. Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

 

[TCGreek]

If sin never separated a believer from God, why must the believer have a mediator, an advocate. What is the purpose of an advocate if there is no sin that separates the believer from God? Please answer.
I John 2:1

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"Advocate" is from the same Greek term that is used of the Holy Spirit in John 14-16, that is oft translated "Comforter."

It literally means "to come alongside of another." We're speaking of Parakletos (I know that you know this).

If we believe and hold that our Substitute paid for our sins in full, past, present, and future, Why is a believer being separated from the Father because of sins?

Perhaps I should ask before I go on: Why type of separation do you have in mind?

 

[Jedi Knight]

"necessary for fellowship" Yes it is...so if you sin Do you loose the spirit is my question to you. Can you answer this please? You throw it back without an answer.......ALWAYS be ready to give an answer for the HOPE you have!:wavey:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: so if you sin Do you loose the spirit is my question to you. Can you answer this please? You throw it back without an answer.......ALWAYS be ready to give an answer for the HOPE you have!

HP: The Spirit of God remains to convict and to draw one back into obedience and fellowship. If the Spirit was completely withdrawn, such a one could have no hope whatsoever of restoration, for without the Spirit of God there is nothing in man to draw him to God.

 

[OldRegular]

HP

Apparently I missed your response to the question I asked in my post #60. Give me a YES or NO! then I will be able to respond to your subsequent questions. Jesus Christ clearly teaches the Eternal Security of the True Believer in the passages I quoted. So I really need to know just where you stand on these passages of Scripture in order to appropriately respond to your questions. So that you will not have to refer back I will post the Scripture passages again.

John 6:35-40, KJV
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 10:27-30, KJV
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 John 5:10-13, KJV
10. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12. He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I am patiently waiting HP! Surely you will not disappoint me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

OR: I am patiently waiting HP! Surely you will not disappoint me.

HP: I have no desire to disappoint you but neither have you responded to my last post.

One problem with your request is that it covers far too many Scriptures. One could write a book to give you an answer. Limit your request to one or two passages, WITH your interpretation of them, and I will try to respond. I vary rarely ever respond to a list of passages themselves. I am not debating Scripture, I am debating your interpretation of it. :thumbs:

 

[Jedi Knight]

If you have the Holy Spirit you belong to God. If you outta fellowship that different. Did you read other scriptures about the Holy Spirit as the spirit of Adoption? Crying Abba FATHER? The Seal guarantee of our redemption?? IF YOU HAVE the Holy Spirit YOU ARE HIS! IF you break fellowship BUT have the spirit,YOU ARE his! If you DON"T have the spirit YOUR NOT HIS. MATH

 

[DHK]

"Advocate" is from the same Greek term that is used of the Holy Spirit in John 14-16, that is oft translated "Comforter."

It literally means "to come alongside of another." We're speaking of Parakletos (I know that you know this).

If we believe and hold that our Substitute paid for our sins in full, past, present, and future, Why is a believer being separated from the Father because of sins?

Perhaps I should ask before I go on: Why type of separation do you have in mind?

The same type John is talking about in the first chapter in his first epistle.
When a believer sins there is a spiritual disconnect, so to speak. If we fail to confess our sins (1John 1:9) we are no longer in fellowship with the Father. Is that not true? Does not sin interfere in our relationship with Christ?

James had harsh words for sin, and its relationship with God and the believer.

James 4:1-4 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Speaking to believers he tells us that:
1. we fight and war because we lust.
2. we lust and don't have and cannot obtain because we don't ask.
3. When we do ask we ask for the wrong things, therefore we don't receive the things we ask for. We would just use it selfishly anyway.
4. Then the Lord calls us adulterers and adulteresses--in a spiritual sense.
--In another passage, Paul reminds us that no such person will enter into heaven, so this is a serious accusation.
--He tells us that we are the enemy of God. Can the enemy of God enter into heaven? Really?

These verses are written to believers. They are written to those who will not lose their salvation. James is speaking to worldly believers, just as the Corinthians were worldly and carnal (1Cor.3:1-4). Their sin and worldliness had so separated them from God that they were called the enemies of God, though they were still believers.

Can it be any more plain that sin separates the believer from God, in a spiritual sense?

 

[TCGreek]

The same type John is talking about in the first chapter in his first epistle.
When a believer sins there is a spiritual disconnect, so to speak. If we fail to confess our sins (1John 1:9) we are no longer in fellowship with the Father. Is that not true? Does not sin interfere in our relationship with Christ?

James had harsh words for sin, and its relationship with God and the believer.

James 4:1-4 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Speaking to believers he tells us that:
1. we fight and war because we lust.
2. we lust and don't have and cannot obtain because we don't ask.
3. When we do ask we ask for the wrong things, therefore we don't receive the things we ask for. We would just use it selfishly anyway.
4. Then the Lord calls us adulterers and adulteresses--in a spiritual sense.
--In another passage, Paul reminds us that no such person will enter into heaven, so this is a serious accusation.
--He tells us that we are the enemy of God. Can the enemy of God enter into heaven? Really?

These verses are written to believers. They are written to those who will not lose their salvation. James is speaking to worldly believers, just as the Corinthians were worldly and carnal (1Cor.3:1-4). Their sin and worldliness had so separated them from God that they were called the enemies of God, though they were still believers.

Can it be any more plain that sin separates the believer from God, in a spiritual sense?

Fair enough, But are interference with our relationship with God and separation from God one and the same?

1. I do agree with the interference because of sin,

2. But not the separation.

3. If separation from the Father, Are we to understand believers going in and out of their salvation experience?

4. But interference I do get.

 

[DHK]

Fair enough, But are interference with our relationship with God and separation from God one and the same?

1. I do agree with the interference because of sin,

2. But not the separation.

If someone is interfering between me and my wife then it follows that they are trying to bring a separation. The Bible often uses words like "fornication," "adultery," etc., to describe a sinful relationship between the believer and the Lord, or between Israel and the Lord. Why? Because sin separates. We are in a marriage union, and often go and commit adultery with the world. That is separation.

3. If separation from the Father, Are we to understand believers going in and out of their salvation experience?

No, never. This only has to do with a believers fellowship with God, never their salvation. Our salvation is secure in Christ. There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

4. But interference I do get.

I don't quite understand the difference between interference and separation.

 

[TCGreek]

If someone is interfering between me and my wife then it follows that they are trying to bring a separation. The Bible often uses words like "fornication," "adultery," etc., to describe a sinful relationship between the believer and the Lord, or between Israel and the Lord. Why? Because sin separates. We are in a marriage union, and often go and commit adultery with the world. That is separation.

I quite agree with your reasoning here.

No, never. This only has to do with a believers fellowship with God, never their salvation. Our salvation is secure in Christ. There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

Okay, I can live with that. That is my view as well.

As long as we're not talking salvation.

I don't quite understand the difference between interference and separation.

Just a matter of semantics, then.