Dead Believers

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Old Regular: Now we are either in Christ or we are not. If we are in Christ it is not possible that we are spiritually dead as described in 1 Corinthians 2:14 or in Ephesians 2:2, 3.

HP: I am wondering how you would answer this. Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of SIN UNTO DEATH, or of obedience unto righteousness? ( This should be your verse DHK for your argument)

My question to you OR: Is it possible to be a servant of the devil and be a servant of Christ at the same time? If so, what do you make of the ‘death’ it speaks of in relationship to the one serving sin? Does it not say, “sin unto death?” Is it your position you cannot sin? Can one be alive to Christ and alive to the devil at the same time? Maybe you believe in sinless perfection as a believer, and you never have been a servant of the devil since you believed. ( Yes, I am provoking you,...just a smidgin):smilewinkgrin:

DHK has never wavered from OSAS period. What he is doing is trying to reconcile the fact that those that have once believed do in fact sin, and he is astute enough to accept the fact that there is a separation that comes to the believer when he sins. You may not explain it the way he does, but his problem is not with claiming we as believers can become dead to Christ, but rather with making that notion consistent with when we are accepted in Christ again, as if though we have never sinned, IF such rebellion is persisted on until the end. I tried to ask about this in post #52. I am awaiting his response.

 

[Jedi Knight]

John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And cometh not into condemnation — Unless he make shipwreck of the faith. I find it odd that the Lord didn't tag a warning for clarity as Wesley did.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

HP: As you see, God did make mention of such a tag. :thumbs:

Speaking of tags, I am still looking for the tag of ‘OSAS,’ anywhere at all.


How about this verse Jedi Knight? Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of SIN UNTO DEATH, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Shed some truth on the 'death' spoken of in this verse. :thumbs:

 

[tinytim]

Oh... I clicked on this thread thinking it was about Baptists... LOL...

Sorry, carry on!

 

[Jedi Knight]

Hey Hevenly,I believe the SIN UNTO DEATH is not going to hell here. 1 John talks of sin unto death after he talks of Gods will. In the Old Testament God said He gave a choice...Life or death,blessings or cursings. Life= Gods perfect will for us. Death=missing Gods best. Moses commited the sin unto death when he hit the rock and God judged Him....He forfeited the promise land.The consequences never left Him till He died. I believe God has plans to bless us and if we do not live a disciplined christian life we forfeit"not salvation"but the abundant life Jesus said we could have. Example....No eye hath see nor entered the heart of man the thing that God has prepared for those who WAIT on him. In the new Testament Paul said the same scripture but said "to those who Love Him". This is not talking about Heaven as I have heard many Pastors pull out of context. Sin unto Death to me equals loss opportunity and that is a death like living. Children of Isreal wondered in the desert unto death never getting the PROMISE=Abundant life they might otherwise could have had.:type:

 

[DHK]

To believing Israel the Lord wrote:
Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
--Are you still going to deny separation from God for the believer?

Writing to Timothy, a Christian, Paul said:
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
--Why is there a mediator if the believer is never separated by sin? Are you still going to deny that the believer is never separated in his fellowship with God?

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
--The fact is that we do sin. Sin separates us from God. Thus God has provided us an advocate to bring us back into fellowship with God. If there was no separation there would be no need for an advocate. Why the advocate?
--Are still going to deny that the believer is never separated in his fellowship with God?

Hebrews 4:14-15 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
--Why the High Priest? Why his necessity, if sin never separates us from God?

Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
--Is it not odd that the Spirit must make intercession for you? If you were perfect and sinless this ministry of the Spirit would not be necessary. But you are not. The fact is that sin causes a separation between you and God, and for that reason the Spirit itself makes intercession for you. Are you still going to deny God's Word that sin causes a separation between the believer and God, in his walk with God?

Why do you think you can do it all on your own? Are you sinless? Do you believe in entire sanctification, that once saved you will never sin again. Every sin that a believer commits separates him from God until that sin is confessed. That is what the entire first chapter of First John teaches.

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
--From what I have read from most of you, you say that you have fellowship with Christ. You are never separated from him by sin. Therefore you never sin. The Bible say that you walk in darkness, you lie, and you do not the truth.
What I am teaching is the truth. You do sin. It does separate you from God. And until that sin is confessed your fellowship with God will be marred or separated, so separated that God will not even hear your prayers (Psalm 66:18)
So what to do about it?

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
--Walk in the light. As long as you are walking in the light (that is without sin) your fellowship with one another and with Christ will be sweet, for the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Do you deny what I am teaching here? Do you deny that sin separates you from God? Are you claiming entire sanctification--that you never sin, and are therefore never separated from God. John goes on to say about this position:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1. You are deceiving yourself, and:
2. The truth is not in you.

However there is a solution:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--Follow the instructions; restore your fellowship, and you will no longer be separated from God in your walk and fellowship with Him.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: However there is a solution:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--Follow the instructions; restore your fellowship, and you will no longer be separated from God in your walk and fellowship with Him.

HP: You are still ignoring the problem I brought up. What if one does NOT confess their sins, sins committed ‘subsequent’ to their salvation experience, and persists in that rebellion unto death? What then? Certainly IF we follow the instructions by repenting and turning to Christ once again in faith our relationship will be restored as you so aptly point out, but if not, when will that separation end? Is death a sanctifier, after which God just forgets about the separation that had occurred and treats you as if though it never existed, in spite of the fact that one has never followed the instructions for restoration of the relationship they once enjoyed? ……or is there a purgatory, or will one be placed on house arrest until one follows the instructions, or will one be excluded from participation in the millennial reign, or is there something else?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tiny Tim: ... I clicked on this thread thinking it was about Baptists... LOL...

HP: Come on down my friend! This is all about Baptists.:thumbs:

 

[Jedi Knight]

How about this verse Jedi Knight? Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of SIN UNTO DEATH, or of obedience unto righteousness? Did ya see ABOVE?:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jedi Knight: I believe the SIN UNTO DEATH is not going to hell here.

HP: I would simply disagree and say that the penalty for sin in anyone’s life is never set forth as merely a loss of rewards in this life. Certainly one would lose rewards in this life but that does not negate the Scriptural notion that such will be the case in the world to come, i.e., loss of the hope of life eternal for all those refusing to repent. Even if we do repent, we may well lose rewards in this life, but we will not lose what those failing to repent will loose, i.e., the hope of life eternal.

To believe that the only thing the rebellious Israelites lost was their rewards of entering into Canaan in this life is beyond the pale of reason to me. Some, such a Moses, who obviously had repented for his actions made it home to glory in spite of his loss of rewards he could have had in this life, but to simply assume without proof that all the others left behind here still made it into the heavenly promise land is conjecture not established or supported by the Word of God.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Ok,I strongly disagree. :wavey: But to loose ETERNAL LIFE ..shouldn't Jesus have called it Probation Life?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: But to loose ETERNAL LIFE ..shouldn't Jesus have called it Probation Life?

HP: Our hope is not probation life, it is eternal life. Just the same, in this world one can make shipwreck of their faith. We hold our hope by faith in this world and are commanded to continue faithful until the end if we desire to see our hope come to fruition and find Christ as our Advocate at the judgment. I believe the best way to view our present hope of eternal life is indeed a state of probation. I find that to be the closest thing in our world that relates to our present hope of eternal life.

Sorry we disagree. There is most likely much that we do agree on. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: You are still ignoring the problem I brought up.

HP, there is no problem. We have been around the block on this many times before. You know my position. Why persist in bringing it up time after time. You have already said that you know I am OSAS. So you have answered your own question.

What if one does NOT confess their sins, sins committed ‘subsequent’ to their salvation experience, and persists in that rebellion unto death? What then?

A believer's salvation is secure in the hand of Christ. Nothing can affect it, nothing. There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus; none. You already know that.
You are derailing this thread.
It is about a believer's walk with Christ; not their salvation.

Certainly IF we follow the instructions by repenting and turning to Christ once again in faith our relationship will be restored as you so aptly point out, but if not, when will that separation end?

Separation as in fellowship on this earth; not separation as in eternal life. Why are you bringing salvation into this picture when I am not. I am speaking of fellowship only when in the context of a believer. Some people can't get that straight.

Is death a sanctifier, after which God just forgets about the separation that had occurred and treats you as if though it never existed,

Are you just being ridiculous on purpose?
Death is defined as separation all throughout the Bible, no exceptions made. That is my position. And that is why people are getting hung up. At least I am consistent.
Sin separates believers from God in their walk with God; in their fellowship with God, not in their salvation.
Concerning salvation, all of our sins are forgiven: past, present, and future. They are all under the blood.

in spite of the fact that one has never followed the instructions for restoration of the relationship they once enjoyed?

Eternal life is eternal life. It is given to all who come to Christ as a free gift and will never be taken away.

……or is there a purgatory, or will one be placed on house arrest until one follows the instructions, or will one be excluded from participation in the millennial reign, or is there something else?

If you want to believe that then go ahead. I never even implied any such thing. Believe what you want HP.

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: Our hope is not probation life, it is eternal life. I GIVE them Eternal life.....when? He who believes in Him who sent me HAS Everlasting life.....when? I writing these this so you may KNOW you HAVE eternal life..... when? We all died in Adam...yes? So how are you going to beat the wrap of death? You need something more...Eternal life! Waiting to GET Eternal Life when you die is too late! I better have insurance BEFORE I have an accident. In the case of death.....its no accident it must happen. The gift of conquering the grave is IN Eternal Life NOW. When scripture refers to the end Eternal Life it means the full experience of it. Oh and BTW believer are ALREADY there hidden with Christ in God. We are seated ALREADY there.:type:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: A believer's salvation is secure in the hand of Christ. Nothing can affect it, nothing. There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus; none. You already know that.
You are derailing this thread.
It is about a believer's walk with Christ; not their salvation.

HP: You are beside yourself DHK. How am I derailing this thread???

This thread concerns a remark you have made about dead believers. Both sides of the aisle, those believing in OSAS and myself opposed both agree that your position as it stands is contradictory. You cannot be dead and alive at the same time in the same sense.

My side of the aisle sees your position as contradictory because Scripture never speaks of dead believers having any hope of their final standing before God. The OSAS of the isle sees your words contradictory because they have the mental fortitude to know that if one is dead to Christ they are not alive, and if one is not alive to Christ there is no hope.

Oh well, believe as you will.

I will leave you with this clear passage of Scripture: 1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

There is not the slightest hint of forgiveness of sins outside of walking in the light as He is in the light. Only as we walk with Him in obedience do we have fellowship with Him, and without fellowship with Him no expectation of cleansing by the blood of Christ is possible.

To speak of making heaven our final abode while dead to God and void of fellowship with Him is simply absurd and contrary to the plain teaching of the Word of God.

 

[DHK]

You cannot be dead and alive at the same time in the same sense.

No? Paul seemed to think so, and his writings were given to him straight from God.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: No? Paul seemed to think so, and his writings were given to him straight from God.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

HP: Paul was not dead to Christ, he was alive unto Christ. He was dead to his self, to his flesh and its sinful desires. He was no longer acting in concert with the desires of the flesh. He was dead thos sinful desires. He was by faith alive unto Christ, his conscience bearing him witness.

Your position is that one can be secure in Christ while he is dead to God. A preposterous and unscriptural position for anyone to take.

 

[OldRegular]

HP

When you respond to my post #60 [Give me a YES or NO!] then I will respond to your subsequent posts. Jesus Christ clearly teaches the Eternal Security of the True Believer in the passages I quoted. So answer my question: YES or NO!

 

[DHK]

Your position is that one can be secure in Christ while he is dead to God. A preposterous and unscriptural position for anyone to take.

Why not learn my position before you start to refute it.
You are not making sense to anyone.
I said: One can be secure in Christ. When a believer sins he is separated from God. Sin separates. The believer will never be separated for all eternity. I believe in OSAS.

If sin never separated a believer from God, why must the believer have a mediator, an advocate. What is the purpose of an advocate if there is no sin that separates the believer from God? Please answer.
I John 2:1

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The believer will never be separated for all eternity. I believe in OSAS.

HP: I fully understand that. Tell us when the separation ends? Does physical death heal the separation if in fact it has not been healed before death? Does the separation go on after death if it was not healed before death? These are reasonable questions concerning your position which you have not answered thus far.