Dead Believers

[DHK]

First, please drop the defensiveness. I never put words in your mouth, I was reiterating that which we both know to be true.

Second, please show us from 1 John 1:9 where we, or any believer for that matter is spiritually dead. Being cleansed of unrighteousness is not being born again, what would be needed if one dies spiritually.

Third, I addressed your question of what dead means from Scripture in post #22

In post #22 you stated exactly what I believe and then are offended by what we both believe because the word "death" is an ugly term and you are not used to hear it as applied to the Christian. As you yourself said: "it means separation." That is all it means.

Does sin separate us from God. Yes it does. It separates us in the sense that we no longer have that special relationship with God, that communion with God that we ought to have, that walk with God. This is what John was speaking of. If you don't believe that, then John has some fairly harsh words for you. This is what he says for those that don't believe that sin separates one from God:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If you maintain that you are in perfect harmony with Christ 100% of your life and that sin has never separated you from Christ in your relation with him, then John says that you have made Christ a liar and His word is not in you.
Why not rethink your position?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Does sin separate us from God. Yes it does. It separates us in the sense that we no longer have that special relationship with God, that communion with God that we ought to have, that walk with God. This is what John was speaking of. If you don't believe that, then John has some fairly harsh words for you. This is what he says for those that don't believe that sin separates one from God:

HP: Here is part of what I do not understand of your position DHK. If death separates us from God as believers, but does not effect our salvation in the end, we have a problem. Death is an enemy, not a sanctifier. If a Christian sins and thereby is separated as you speak from God, then all one has to do to be restored is to die in their sins and separation? It would appear that way to me.

You have those, separated from God entering heaven in right standing before Him. Does their separation continue in heaven? Can one be found in Him and yet separated from Him at the same time in the same sense? If not, does death sanctify us? Is it like the little cartoon where they all fight and carry on until the horn blows (physical death) and then they simply join hands in harmony for eternity? Is death an enemy or a sanctifier?

 

[DHK]

HP: Here is part of what I do not understand of your position DHK. If death separates us from God as believers, but does not effect our salvation in the end, we have a problem. Death is an enemy, not a sanctifier. If a Christian sins and thereby is separated as you speak from God, then all one has to do to be restored is to die in their sins and separation? It would appear that way to me.

Your mind is fixated on the word "death" as you have used it all your life--physical death. I defined death as separation, and then showed from the Bible how there are four different types of death or separation. In the context above I am not speaking of physical death. Where did that come from?
I said SIN separates us from God, even as believers sin separates us from God. Is that not true? Is not your fellowship with God affected by sin? Is this a hard concept to grasp. If sin never separated you from God there would be no need for sanctification would there? There never would be any restoration to God for you would never have any broken links in your armor, no sin to confess, etc. You would be perfect, sinless. And we know from 1John 1:8,10 that that position is untenable.

If a person is "spiritually dead," that is spiritually separated from God because of sin, then restoration comes via 1John 1:9, by restoring the fellowship through confession of sin. If it is because of sin; then get rid of the sin. If there is a barrier between you and God, then one must get rid of the barrier. If I am traveling on a country road and a tree has fallen across the road, in order to reach my destination, the tree has to be removed. The barrier of sin must be removed if my fellowship with God is to be restored.

You have those, separated from God entering heaven in right standing before Him.

Who said anything about entering into heaven. I am not speaking of physical death; I am speaking of our fellowship with God while living the Christian life down here on earth.

 

[OldRegular]

DHK

You are dead wrong on this one!

The following has already been posted but perhaps you did not understand it.

Romans 8:35-39
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Allow me to explain on 'death'. It is not speaking of physical. It speaks of spiritually.

In Ezekiel 18:24 says:

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? A;; his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned in his trepass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

This tells us, 'righteous' (saved person) was doing the righteousness ways earlier, but person departs from the right ways and continue in sinning ways, then, person is no longer remain live, that person is already dead.

That means, person's soul is spiritually death, and obivious separate from God. What's 'die' leads to? Lead to eternal punishment in fire seaparate from God.

In James 1:15-16 say:

"Then when lust hath conceived it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. DO NOT ER, MY BELOVED BRETHREN."

James 1:15-16 was clear written to believers or Christians, not lost people. It warns us, if we(Christians) continue in sinning with practical wicked life, it shall bring us forth to death. "Death" is not speaking of physical or flesh, but speak of spiritually death- SOUL.

That means, if we turn away from our righteousness ways, and turn into wicked ways as we continue doing these in our lifetime all the way to our death(physical), then our souls would remain death(spiritually), which shall bring us to everlasting destruction separate from God, in everlasting fire.

That why verse 16 warns us that we DO NOT doing mistake or error ways.

Both Ezekiel 18:24 and James 1:15 are very clear speak of conditional with warning. If we meglect them, and continue practical evil ways all the way through our lifetime till our death(physical), then our souls would be end up in hell.

That why Bible commands us that we ought repents of sins, and walk in the light all the times.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DHK]

DHK

You are dead wrong on this one!

The following has already been posted but perhaps you did not understand it.

Romans 8:35-39
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Your eyes are blind, your ears are deaf, or you just plain do not read what I post, which is probably the truth of the matter.
I have been saying over and over again that this has nothing to do with salvation, so why bring it up over and over again.

It has to do with one's fellowship with God.
Every believer sins. Sin separates him from God, that is, from having fellowship with God. It does not separate him from God in a salvic way. Of course God never leaves us nor forsakes us.

Take Adam and Eve. They sinned. They "hid" from God. They were separated from God because of their sin. They were not lost. They were still God's children. They needed to be reconciled, not saved. God sought them out. It used to be that they had sweet fellowship with God as we walked with them in the cool of the garden. Now sin had caused a harsh separation. God was still there. His presence would always be there. He wasn't going to go away. But there was a separation between Adam and God. Sin had caused that separation. It was God that came "looking" for Adam. And finally it was God, through an animal sacrifice, that restored Adam back into fellowship with Himself. Sin separates.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

OldRegular,

Romans 8:35-39 is not discuss about sin, it discuss about everything like trials, tests, troubles, persecutions, etc cannot separate us from God's LOVE.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DPT: Romans 8:35-39 is not discuss about sin, it discuss about everything like trials, tests, troubles, persecutions, etc cannot separate us from God's LOVE.
Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

HP: Deafposttrib, we need to check that out.

Lets see, ‘death,’ that’s not sin. ‘Life,’ that’s not sin. ‘Angels,’ that’s not sin. ‘Principalities,’ that’s not sin. ‘Powers,’ that’s not sin. ‘Things present,’ that’s not sin. ‘Things to come,’ that’s not sin. ‘Height,’ that’s not sin. ‘Depth,’ that’s not sin. ‘Nor any other creature,’ that certainly is not sin. By George, I believe you are indeed right! :thumbsup:

 

[EdSutton]

Think again!

This is the first I have ever heard of a believer being separated from God

You must have missed all the controversial discussions over "ME" about a year and a half ago.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Quick Thinking!

This has got to be the most unorthodox view of spiritual death I have ever come across. Is heresy too strong of a word to use in describing it? NO believer is spiritually dead! We are NEVER separated from God due to sin if Christ's blood covers us...He is the one who for a moment was forsaken...not us...ever! This has the Millenial Exclusion undertones to it!

Oh! I see you do actually remember about a year and a half ago. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Your mind is fixated on the word "death" as you have used it all your life--physical death.

HP: No it isn’t. I understand how you are using it but regardless of the separation in this life you are speaking of, physical death is the dividing line where the death that occurs now is suddenly and mysteriously ended. It makes physical death the sanctifier of the death or separation spiritually that occurs to a believer in this life. Can you follow me now or should I try again?

Possibly you might believe that the separation in this life continues on after this life as we know it .......in the Millennial reign or heaven?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Who said anything about entering into heaven. I am not speaking of physical death; I am speaking of our fellowship with God while living the Christian life down here on earth.

HP: My point is about the possibility of letting that separation from God stand until one reaches physical death. What then? Does the separation cease, OSAS taking over, and all is restored by the sanctifier, i.e., physical death, or is there purgatory, eliminating of participation in the millennial reign, house arrest in heaven or what if one has not repented and fellowship restored?

 

[webdog]

In post #22 you stated exactly what I believe and then are offended by what we both believe because the word "death" is an ugly term and you are not used to hear it as applied to the Christian.

I'm not used to is, because it is never used in conjunction with believers. It's disheartening you don't believe it is an "ugly term", as countless people who are spiritually dead will be spending an eternity separated from God...not believers. Regardless of whether you don't believe it is connected to salvation, Scripture is plain that it is To be born again is to have spiritual life. To be spiritually dead is to be eternally separated from God. Words have meanings, and you can't just redefine words to fit your understanding.

 

[DHK]

I'm not used to is, because it is never used in conjunction with believers. It's disheartening you don't believe it is an "ugly term", as countless people who are spiritually dead will be spending an eternity separated from God...not believers. Regardless of whether you don't believe it is connected to salvation, Scripture is plain that it is To be born again is to have spiritual life. To be spiritually dead is to be eternally separated from God. Words have meanings, and you can't just redefine words to fit your understanding.

It is dishonest of you to attribute to me things that:
I never said,
I don't believe,
I have denied in this very thread, but you are attributing to me anyway.

It appears that you simply want to close your eyes to the truth of God's Word, because you don't like what you hear, even though you agree with what I say when I say in different words. Now, that is really pitiful. The choice of words used in the English language will change your view on doctrine.

First of all, as I have said plenty of times throughout this thread, I am not speaking of salvation; I am not speaking of eternity; I am not speaking of being separated from God for all eternity. So why are you falsely accusing me of believing these things, when I already have set the record straight in previous threads. We have an entire thread on "false accusations" and you are doing a good job right here.

Here is what you said:
"countless people who are spiritually dead will be spending an eternity separated from God...not believers.
I have already explained this statement once. I'll do it again.
1. As applied to the unsaved: Those who are spiritually separated from God will spend an eternity separated from God.
2. As applied to the saved: Those who are spiritually separated from God will spend a temporary period of time on this earth separated from God until they repent of that sin which is separating them from having fellowship with God. This has nothing to do with salvation, eternal life, etc. It has to do with one's walk with Christ, our fellowship with him.

Sin separates us from God. Sin separated Adam from God. Sin separated David from God, until he repented. Sin separates the believer from God, until that sin is taken away of.
In Psalm 66:18 David declares that God will not even hear your prayers if there is sin in your heart. Why? Because sin separates you from God.

Now instead of saying "I just can't believe you." "That is heresy," and getting all emotional and upset, give a rational argument and reasons why, what I have presented is not Scriptural or Biblical.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: To be spiritually dead is to be eternally separated from God.

HP: You are killing the argument of eternalism (a word I use for the fallacious argument that if we once are partakers of eternal life that we cannot loose it, for once eternal always eternal) used by so many on this board, but in the process you are illustrating a truth none the less. :thumbs:

They call anyone a liar, as well as charging them with calling God a liar and the Word of God a liar, that claims one can be spiritually eternally separated from God that ever had a hope of eternal life. Your comment here is living proof that one can be spiritually dead, in possession of the hope of eternal damnation YET CAN, if they will, turn to Christ and the eternal hope they once had can dissipate as the morning fog, while the hope and light of eternal salvation begins to shine brightly upon their hearts as the morning sun!

Because one now is in possession of the hope of ‘eternal’ damnation, or now is in the possession of the hope of ‘eternal’ life in Christ, it no wise suggests, as some on this list suggest, that eternal means without change in this present world. We are in control of our destiny in this world by acceptance or rejection of the gospel and willing obedience. We only are and remain ‘eternally in Christ,’ as a state we possess in this present world, as we remain faithful to the end as over comers, just the same as one is eternally lost in this present world only as one selfishly refuses to submit ones will in repentance, faith and obedience to Gods offer of salvation. Joh 8:31 ¶ “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;” Mt 10:22 “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” 2Pe 1:10 “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:”

Ones eternal destiny and or hope, can change in this present world. That gives hope to the eternally lost and should instill a careful and watchful attitude among Christians that by faith are in possession of the present hope of eternal life with Christ. Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[webdog]

It is dishonest of you to attribute to me things that:
I never said,
I don't believe,
I have denied in this very thread, but you are attributing to me anyway.

I see you are beginning the typical spitting match, and I really don't want to get into that.

It appears that you simply want to close your eyes to the truth of God's Word, because you don't like what you hear, even though you agree with what I say when I say in different words. Now, that is really pitiful.

The Truth of God's Word is the fact "spiritual death" is NEVER used in regards to believers. The burden of proof is on YOU to show that phraseology applied to believers. You haven't, and you can't.

The choice of words used in the English language will change your view on doctrine.

First of all, as I have said plenty of times throughout this thread, I am not speaking of salvation; I am not speaking of eternity; I am not speaking of being separated from God for all eternity.

Like I stated prior...regardless of how YOU are using the phrase "spiritual death", it is indeed connected to salvation, as it is speaking of those not justified.

So why are you falsely accusing me of believing these things, when I already have set the record straight in previous threads. We have an entire thread on "false accusations" and you are doing a good job right here.

Outright dishonesty. I haven't accused you of anything but taking the phrase "spiritual death" an misapplying it to a believer.

Here is what you said:
"countless people who are spiritually dead will be spending an eternity separated from God...not believers.
I have already explained this statement once. I'll do it again.
1. As applied to the unsaved: Those who are spiritually separated from God will spend an eternity separated from God.
2. As applied to the saved: Those who are spiritually separated from God will spend a temporary period of time on this earth separated from God until they repent of that sin which is separating them from having fellowship with God. This has nothing to do with salvation, eternal life, etc. It has to do with one's walk with Christ, our fellowship with him.

...yet Scripture NEVER uses spiritual death the way you are. You can package it in a nice theological outline for me, but it doesn't make it truth. I'll repeat...it IS NEVER used in conjunction with the saved.

Sin separates us from God. Sin separated Adam from God. Sin separated David from God, until he repented. Sin separates the believer from God, until that sin is taken away of.

My sin was taken away at the cross, and being in Christ I am not separated from HIm...ever. Lack of fellowship is NOT spiritual death. You are making up definitions that the authors never intended.

Now instead of saying "I just can't believe you." "That is heresy," and getting all emotional and upset, give a rational argument and reasons why, what I have presented is not Scriptural or Biblical.

From your posts it looks like you are the emotional, upset one. I have given a rational argument. The burden of proof falls on you to support believers can be spiritually separated from God, and you haven't. You never even touched the Scripture I supplied that speaks to the contrary. As believers we have passed from death (spiritual separation) to life (union with Christ). This is being born again. If you die, you need to be re-re-born. This is not sound theology, and regardless of how much you rail against it not having to do with eternal salvation, the Bible makes it plain it does.

 

[OldRegular]

Your eyes are blind, your ears are deaf, or you just plain do not read what I post, which is probably the truth of the matter.
I have been saying over and over again that this has nothing to do with salvation, so why bring it up over and over again.

It has to do with one's fellowship with God.
Every believer sins. Sin separates him from God, that is, from having fellowship with God. It does not separate him from God in a salvic way. Of course God never leaves us nor forsakes us.

I have read your OP and some of your posts. When a true believer, a Saint, sins his fellowship with God is marred but not broken. He is not spiritually dead. You are dead wrong when you say that sin by a Saint makes him spiritually dead. One who is spiritually dead is separated from God. What you are teaching, ignorantly I assume, is that when a Saint sins he loses his salvation. That is not biblical!

Scripture contrasts those who are spiritually dead, the lost, and those who are spiritually alive, the saved, as follows:

The lost person:
1Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Saint:
2Corinthians 5:17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Now we are either in Christ or we are not. If we are in Christ it is not possible that we are spiritually dead [described in 1 Corinthians 2:14 or in Ephesians 2:2, 3.]

 

[OldRegular]

OldRegular,

Romans 8:35-39 is not discuss about sin, it discuss about everything like trials, tests, troubles, persecutions, etc cannot separate us from God's LOVE.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

The referenced passage is all inclusive. Nothing can separate the Saint from the love of God.

 

[OldRegular]

DHK: The definition of death is not annihilation; but separation.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When the body is separated from the spirit it is dead.
When one is separated from God, then they are dead.
A believer can be separated from God and be dead spiritually until he repents of his sin confesses it and his fellowship is restored (no effect on salvation)
An unbeliever is separated from God and is counted dead because of it. (Eph.2:1)
Once an unbeliever dies he will face separation for all eternity from God (eternal death) in a place called Hell, and then eventually will face the Great White Throne Judgement (The Second Death)

Death is separation.
If one is not saved he is dead.

Your above post is totally contradictory. You put the regenerate sinner in the same state as the unregenerate sinner.

 

[OldRegular]

Old Regular: There is nothing so pathetic as a professing Christian who makes a liar out of his Savior!

HP: I have certainly done no such thing.

Then you admit the truth of the following Scripture which clearly prove that that once a person is saved he is kept eternally secure by the power of God. YES OR NO!

John 6:35-40, KJV
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 10:27-30, KJV
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


1 John 5:10-13, KJV
10. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12. He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.