Debunking Unconditional Eternal Security: Hebrews 10:39

[vooks]

And they are right on that point.
And if you bother to look at the context you will see that those who fall away in every passage are designated as unbelievers. The error is yours.

Nobody said they are believers....they WERE believers once hence the warning to believers against falling away into unbelief.

The most nonsensical claim of OSAS heretics is that an apostate was NEVER a believer, those who depart from the truth were NEVER in it.

No-one teaches that except the L.O.S.T.

Holy Spirit is clear on this,buthow would you know!

The only insecurity belongs to those who do not actually trust in Christ's death as much as they profess to. It is ironic, no?

'Depart from me you workers of iniquity, for I never knew you'

Calvinists do not teach this. This is a construct of your own mind, a false argument to support your view.

Www.google.com
I trust you know this is not a planet but a search engine?

No idea what you are talking about. But this is what happens when someone creates false arguments not even endorsed by those of opposing view.

Do they offer comprehension classes here?
They should @Darrell C, they should

Just as you believe the Word of God denies sanctification in regards to the Person of Christ.

Sanctification to you is being made holy, and Jesus blood made him holy.

Your doctrine is not derived from Scripture, but simply reflects what you want to believe. You try to conform Scripture to your own beliefs. You are not alone in this Vooks.

That perfectly describes OSAS. Try in between your rants to confront what I said with scriptures.

Where is the examination? There is no examination here.

Did you talk of spiritual blindness? That's irony incarnate!

You scoff at the very statement of the Writer, thus...you scoff at God.

Not as much as you, you claim the blameless lamb of God was filthy and in dire need of his own blood to make him holy

How hard is it to understand that the Writer, after giving grave warning about rejecting Christ, states we are not like them?

Because he is not an idiot to warn against an improbable outcome

Who are those that do draw back unto perdition? And if there is a drawing back unto perdition and a definite "believing to the saving of the soul," when would we expect that this believing to the saving of the soul takes place?

Why is he encouraging them not to cast away their faith if this is impossible seeing they are 'perfected forever'? Was he smoking weed @Darrell C?

So, I exhort you to learn how to examine Scripture, rather than broadcasting your opinions in a public forum which, hopefully, you will one day look back on and regret.

You know man made traditions are idols, it's about time you discarded them and turned to the living God @Darrell C.

But, being ignorant of a very simple truth, that Christ does indeed save eternally, is not something that demands lack of relationship with Him.

Yes He does. So, why did the author encourage them not to cast away their faith? We're the subjects 'saved eternally'?

You are not alone in having a works-based mentality, many, if not most do.

It's no work based but faith based. Without faith it is impossible to please God. You need your faith throughout, cast it away and you are a castaway. There are millions like you deluded that sin don't matter nothing because all their probable sins were forgiven. They will sleepwalk to hell @Darrell C

One day you might get to the place where you acknowledge that Christ actually saved you, but it may not sink in until you stand before Him.

One day scales you will esteem the Word of God above your pet doctrines and light will break through

But the choice is yours. It is just a matter of being obedient to the command to study.


God bless.

I have fed you with the Truth, can't force you to,take it. Take some time off and think through what you just wrote; Jesus so badly needed his own blood to cleanse him...

 

[vooks]

For the record, please answer the question: how will your future sins be forgiven, Vooks?


God bless.

When you repent and pray for forgiveness

 

[vooks]

Okay, while we await brother Vooks' explanation as to how, when he sins in the future, he is going to receive forgiveness for that sin, let's take a pro-active stance on Eternal Security. We have to not only show the weakness and error of an opposing view, but show why our view is correct.

So just a quick one:


John 10:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Now, the L.O.S.T. are going to say, "This just means that men can't take them out of His Hand, but they can remove themselves," lol.

This denies what Christ states.

Now, let's see the Hand of God again:


Hebrews 10:31

King James Version (KJV)

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



Now the first thing to consider is the context. Here we have two entirely different actions by the same Hand.

Would anyone like to share why the context is different?


God bless.

Clearly, you have NOTHING on the subject verse save shadowboxing with yourself. @Darrell C, I told you, the truth elicits all sorts of emotions

 

[utilyan]

Once Saved Always Saved is definitely biblical.

Its right here:

Genesis 2

4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Its what got us in the mess to begin with. Adam and Eve were children of God, loved by God, given paradise, holy, God breathed Image of God. They were without sin and there was no death. And the first thing Satan is sucker them into Once Saved Always Saved.

God disapproves sin first and foremost because the harm it does to you, not for the sake of some rule or law which purpose was to help you.

Sin is not a perk you can have as long as you pay for consequences, The "consequences" themselves God's discipline are for the sake of stopping sin.

Satan sold Adam and Eve was a GODLIKE SECURITY that they could be like GOD because God could not be trusted and security has to be in your hands. That you have to have a leverage over God.

The sin itself is the complete suffering and attempt to murder God not merely as presented in existence but down to the soul and spirit of what God is.

Its better for a innocent man like Jesus to be tortured and hated by everyone one the planet and thrown in hell, then for a man to get heaven, everything he wants and then sins.

You can torture Jesus for thousands of eternities he's not going to sin. For him its as obvious as shoes goes on the feet. Sin itself is what we need to crack and break.

When I beg God for salvation It means nothing but cease of sin and the GOOD WORK of loving God.

It has nothing to do with my immortality or some Disneyland of getting what I want or some Reward or avoidance of consequence.

I rather love God once the right way. That's the total victory that's the goal.

 

[vooks]

Once Saved Always Saved is definitely biblical.

Its right here:

Genesis 2

4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Its what got us in the mess to begin with. Adam and Eve were children of God, loved by God, given paradise, holy, God breathed Image of God. They were without sin and there was no death. And the first thing Satan is sucker them into Once Saved Always Saved.

God disapproves sin first and foremost because the harm it does to you, not for the sake of some rule or law which purpose was to help you.

Sin is not a perk you can have as long as you pay for consequences, The "consequences" themselves God's discipline are for the sake of stopping sin.

Satan sold Adam and Eve was a GODLIKE SECURITY that they could be like GOD because God could not be trusted and security has to be in your hands. That you have to have a leverage over God.

The sin itself is the complete suffering and attempt to murder God not merely as presented in existence but down to the soul and spirit of what God is.

Its better for a innocent man like Jesus to be tortured and hated by everyone one the planet and thrown in hell, then for a man to get heaven, everything he wants and then sins.

You can torture Jesus for thousands of eternities he's not going to sin. For him its as obvious as shoes goes on the feet. Sin itself is what we need to crack and break.

When I beg God for salvation It means nothing but cease of sin and the GOOD WORK of loving God.

It has nothing to do with my immortality or some Disneyland of getting what I want or some Reward or avoidance of consequence.

I rather love God once the right way. That's the total victory that's the goal.

Thank you for the philosophy class. Now, could you please deal with the subject verse?

 

[Darrell C]

When you repent and pray for forgiveness

And on what basis will God forgive you?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Satan sold Adam and Eve was a GODLIKE SECURITY that they could be like GOD because God could not be trusted and security has to be in your hands. That you have to have a leverage over God.

Satan was correct:

Genesis 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


And you will have to explain to Vooks that you agree with him, lol.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Nobody said they are believers....they WERE believers once hence the warning to believers against falling away into unbelief.

Vooks, you are really going to have to stop trying to say two different things at the same time.

You are attributing unbelievers as having salvation. You still contradict yourself.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

And on what basis will God forgive you?


God bless.

The same basis he forgave you your past sins

 

[Darrell C]

The same basis he forgave you your past sins

And did you deserve that forgiveness? When He forgave you your past sins?

And...what is the basis?

God bless.

 

[vooks]

Vooks, you are really going to have to stop trying to say two different things at the same time.

You are attributing unbelievers as having salvation. You still contradict yourself.


God bless.

I may have to ask you to confirm your age to help me better guess how often I should repeat simple truths before they sink.

Some questions for you( and I need simple yes/no answers not mindless ramblings and irrelevant scriptures) to unclog your mind;

1. Is there any chance of renouncing your(@Darrell C) faith....treading underfoot the Son of God,counting the blood of the covenant that sanctified you as unholy, and despising the Spirit of grace?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm not sure

Next question is based on your answer here.

God bless

 

[vooks]

And did you deserve that forgiveness? When He forgave you your past sins?

No you don't and you did not

And...what is the basis?

God bless.

Blood of Jesus Christ

 

[Darrell C]

I may have to ask you to confirm your age to help me better guess how often I should repeat simple truths before they sink.

Some questions for you( and I need simple yes/no answers not mindless ramblings and irrelevant scriptures) to unclog your mind;

1. Is there any chance of renouncing your(@Darrell C) faith....treading underfoot the Son of God,counting the blood of the covenant that sanctified you as unholy, and despising the Spirit of grace?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I'm not sure

Next question is based on your answer here.

God bless

No, Vooks, there is no possibility of that, because in view is the difference between those who reject salvation in Christ, and those who do not draw back unto perdition.

It is impossible to both reject and accept Christ. One has either embraced Christ or he has not.

And again you simply do not understand your question is out of the context of the passage. In view is not a renouncing of something, but a rejection.

Hebrews 10:28 is not speaking about Old Testament rejecters renouncing Moses' Law, but despising it.

Hebrews 10:29 is speaking of those in that current day not just despising it, but counting Him, His Sacrifice, and the New Covenant...as unholy.

Now, what do the rejecters count as holy?

Very simple: the sacrifices of the Law. That is why the Writer contrasts the Covenant of the Law so often, because the entire Book centers around trying to convince Hebrews to embrace Christ rather than staying under Law. This is the point of "there remaineth no more sacrifice," it is a statement to the fact that the sacrifices (which he speaks about in detail at the beginning of this chapter) of the Law could not bring remission of sins in completion.

You need to study the Book, Vooks. If you do, you will see what the Writer is saying. Read it ten times straight through, and by the times you do that, you will have a better grasp of it.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

No you don't and you did not


Blood of Jesus Christ

Not me, Vooks...you.

You were forgiven based on exactly what the Writer states as the means of forgiveness, and He makes it clear that you have been made complete in regards of remission of sins. That does not allow for a "clean slate" mentality, the principle is concrete.

And that is what the New Covenant promised. I have quoted that fact many times in our discussions.

But your view says "God will remember sins," and "He doesn't really forgive sin completely, He just wipes the slate clean so you better be good."

Do you really think you have been good since you were saved?

Which sin which you have committed, since you were saved...isn't enough to incur the penalty of the Law?

Which one, Vooks?

Any of them?

Or are the sins you commit okay, it's just the really bad ones others commit that will cause the unending and complete remission of sins we have based on the Blood of Christ to become void of merit?

Or do you think you have not sinned since being saved? Ever do something since being saved you knew in advance was sin?


God bless.

 

[vooks]

Not me, Vooks...you.

You were forgiven based on exactly what the Writer states as the means of forgiveness, and He makes it clear that you have been made complete in regards of remission of sins. That does not allow for a "clean slate" mentality, the principle is concrete.

And that is what the New Covenant promised. I have quoted that fact many times in our discussions.

But your view says "God will remember sins," and "He doesn't really forgive sin completely, He just wipes the slate clean so you better be good."

Do you really think you have been good since you were saved?

Which sin which you have committed, since you were saved...isn't enough to incur the penalty of the Law?

Which one, Vooks?

Any of them?

Or are the sins you commit okay, it's just the really bad ones others commit that will cause the unending and complete remission of sins we have based on the Blood of Christ to become void of merit?

Or do you think you have not sinned since being saved? Ever do something since being saved you knew in advance was sin?


God bless.

God forgiving future sins is a figment of your imagination, totally baseless and entirely wishful thinking. Unfortunately Truth is not based on wishful thinking @Darrell C.

When I surrendered to Christ, all my sins were forgiven. There is no such thing as 'future sin'. Logically why would I be forgiven something I have yet to commit?

And no my brother, I'm not forgiven as I sin. Holy Spirit quickens me of my sins, I repent, pray for forgiveness and I'm forgiven. If I don't, I will verily perish in my sins.

I do not wish to derail this thread on the question of future forgiveness of sins. For now, I request you to stick to the subject, and if you wish to discuss forgiveness, feel free to start a new thread. Let's try and keep it tidy. You realize you had even snuck rapture here? Not wise IMHO.

 

[Darrell C]

God forgiving future sins is a figment of your imagination, totally baseless and entirely wishful thinking. Unfortunately Truth is not based on wishful thinking @Darrell C.

When I surrendered to Christ, all my sins were forgiven. There is no such thing as 'future sin'.

Yet another example of you saying two opposite things and thinking you are saying the same thing.

If all your sins were forgiven, how can you imply that the sins of the future are not also forgiven based on His death for you, not individual sins?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

When I surrendered to Christ, all my sins were forgiven.

Unless you commit willful sin.

Unless you do that which is listed in Hebrews 10:29.

Those sins were not forgiven, right?


God bless.

 

[vooks]

No, Vooks, there is no possibility of that,

So it is IMPOSSIBLE for @Darrell C to depart from faith?

It is impossible to both reject and accept Christ. One has either embraced Christ or he has not.
.

@Darrell C,
You are the most brilliant mind on this forum yet it beats me how you keep on missing simple points and erecting strawmen. Am I overrating you, or are you playing dumb to avoid confronting your belief system.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to accept and reject Christ simultaneously, and nobody disputes this. But is it IMPOSSIBLE to accept and reject Christ at different times?

 

[vooks]

Yet another example of you saying two opposite things and thinking you are saying the same thing.

You have comprehension problems @Darrell C

If all your sins were forgiven, how can you imply that the sins of the future are not also forgiven based on His death for you, not individual sins?
God bless.

Because I'm not guilty of the future sins I have yet to commit. Why would I need the blood to cover 'uncommitted sins'?

Sin is defined as transgression of the Law in 1John 3:4. At my conversion, the only transgressions I had committed are the ones which were forgiven. This is why I say I was forgiven ALL sins (and they were many!). ALL is all past and present sins ALREADY committed

 

[Darrell C]

So it is IMPOSSIBLE for @Darrell C to depart from faith?

@Darrell C,
You are the most brilliant mind on this forum yet it beats me how you keep on missing simple points and erecting strawmen. Am I overrating you, or are you playing dumb to avoid confronting your belief system.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to accept and reject Christ simultaneously, and nobody disputes this. But is it IMPOSSIBLE to accept and reject Christ at different times?

And that, my friend...is what I have been trying to tell you since post 1, lol.

That is what you are doing, teaching that one can accept and reject. The context is only of those that reject, not those who accept, then, as you said here...

Is there any chance of renouncing your(@Darrell C) faith....

You can't renounce a faith that was never existent. The Writer is warning of those who associate with Christ that there is no other Sacrifice they can turn to. This has a direct Historical application to those who would have sat in the assemblies this Epistle was read.

As I said once before, you and I never had to renounce a heritage of the Law as these Hebrews were called to do. This is what he (the Writer) means when he says...


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


Let me ask you, how could someone have charged you with needing to be taught again the First Principles of the Oracles of God when you were saved?

Did you have the ABCs of the Old Testament prior to salvation in Christ, when you did in fact embrace that which is perfect in Christ and only pictured in the Old Testament?


God bless.