Decisional Regeneration Take 2

[Jarthur001]

:laugh: I don't have any! I was asking how you see it.

does this mean i get no donut?

Well, lets start with one verse Bob has used alot.

how shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

If you read right before and right after this passage it becomes clear. This passage is talking about our blessing in justification we have before God thanks to Christ death on the cross.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?


Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

NOTICE>>>>>key verse to understanding the passage.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Gill........

"dead to sin", both as justified and sanctified: justified persons are dead to sin, inasmuch as that is not imputed to them to condemnation and death; they are discharged from it; it cannot hurt them, or exert its damning power over them; it is crucified, abolished, and made an end of by Christ: sanctified persons are dead to sin; sin is not made their business, it is not their course of life; it is no longer a pleasure to them, but is loathsome and abominable; it is looked upon, not as a friend, but an enemy; it does not reign, it has not the dominion over them; it is subdued in them, and its power weakened; and as to the members of the flesh, and deeds of the body, it is mortified: to live in sin, is to live after the dictates of corrupt nature; and persons may be said to live in it, when they give up themselves to it, are bent upon it; when sin is their life, they delight in it, make it their work and business, and the whole course of their life is sinful: now those who are dead to sin, cannot thus live in it, though sin may live in them; they may fall into sin, and lie in it some time, yet they cannot live in it: living in sin, is not only unbecoming the grace of God revealed in the Gospel, but is contrary to it; it is detestable to gracious minds, yea, it seems impossible they should live in it; which is suggested by this question, "how shall we?" &c. The thing is impracticable: for, for a gracious soul to live in sin, would be to die again, to become dead in sin, which cannot be; he that lives and believes in Christ shall never die, spiritually or eternally.

 

[Amy.G]

does this mean i get no donut?

Well, lets start with one verse Bob has used alot.



If you read right before and right after this passage it becomes clear. This passage is talking about our blessing in justification we have before God thanks to Christ death on the cross.


NOTICE>>>>>key verse to understanding the passage.



Gill........

That is what I said a few posts back.

You can still have a donut.

This conversation is making me hungry!

 

[Brother Bob]

"dead to sin", both as justified and sanctified: justified persons are dead to sin, inasmuch as that is not imputed to them to condemnation and death; they are discharged from it; it cannot hurt them, or exert its damning power over them; it is crucified, abolished, and made an end of by Christ: sanctified persons are dead to sin; sin is not made their business, it is not their course of life; it is no longer a pleasure to them, but is loathsome and abominable; it is looked upon, not as a friend, but an enemy; it does not reign, it has not the dominion over them; it is subdued in them, and its power weakened; and as to the members of the flesh, and deeds of the body, it is mortified: to live in sin, is to live after the dictates of corrupt nature; and persons may be said to live in it, when they give up themselves to it, are bent upon it; when sin is their life, they delight in it, make it their work and business, and the whole course of their life is sinful: now those who are dead to sin, cannot thus live in it, though sin may live in them; they may fall into sin, and lie in it some time, yet they cannot live in it: living in sin, is not only unbecoming the grace of God revealed in the Gospel, but is contrary to it; it is detestable to gracious minds, yea, it seems impossible they should live in it; which is suggested by this question, "how shall we?" &c. The thing is impracticable: for, for a gracious soul to live in sin, would be to die again, to become dead in sin, which cannot be; he that lives and believes in Christ shall never die, spiritually or eternally.

James: I know you are a intelligent man. You do not have to study this quote by Gill, to see that it goes from one extreme to the other. He says sin to the believer that sin does not reign in the body, then says but if you do it is covered and does not matter. Sounds just like DHK.

Scripture says if you sin you lend your members to serve satan, therefore Satan is your master. The Scripture also says, no man can server two masters, he will love one and hate the other.
I know we differ on predestination. I sure hope we do not differ on the saved being able to commit any sin known to mankind, such as the Senator just committed or pedophiles, adulterers can die and go to heaven and sing with the angels. I will be honest with you. You doctrine of predestination, I do not agree but it does not upset me either, the doctrine of the saved committing any sin known unto mankind is a doctrine I hate.

answer this one, then I give you another.

Rom 6:15¶What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1Cr 6:15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.

Good nite folks, have a good nite and life.

 

[Martin]

O, never mind. This merry-go-round is already on page 9. I don't want to jump on now.

Good day.

 

[TCGreek]

...then Scripture doesn't support the same logic in "dead in sin".

1. I was out of town for a few hrs.

2. Paul speaks of being death in sin (Eph.2:1-3) apart from Christ.

 

[TCGreek]

Do we need to overcome that deadness TO sin in order to sin?

1. Your question is internally contradictory; therefore, I cannot answer your question without misunderstanding taking place.

2. Apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit, the heart of man is sick, hardened, and dead to the spiritual things of God and his will is in bondage to sin (Eph 2:1-3; 4:17-19).

3. In this state, man does not seek God, understands God, turned aside to his own rebellion, cannot please God and is hostile toward God (Rom 3:9-12; 8:7-8).

4. On his own man cannot overcome that which hardens his heart, blinds his eyes and keeps him shackled to sin.

5. This is my understanding of man in Scripture--I know of no other view.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

James: I know you are a intelligent man. You do not have to study this quote by Gill, to see that it goes from one extreme to the other. He says sin to the believer that sin does not reign in the body, then says but if you do it is covered and does not matter. Sounds just like DHK.

Scripture says if you sin you lend your members to serve satan, therefore Satan is your master. The Scripture also says, no man can server two masters, he will love one and hate the other.
I know we differ on predestination. I sure hope we do not differ on the saved being able to commit any sin known to mankind, such as the Senator just committed or pedophiles, adulterers can die and go to heaven and sing with the angels. I will be honest with you. You doctrine of predestination, I do not agree but it does not upset me either, the doctrine of the saved committing any sin known unto mankind is a doctrine I hate.

answer this one, then I give you another.

Rom 6:15¶What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1Cr 6:15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.

Good nite folks, have a good nite and life.

Brother Bob,

Not sure how you got that out of Gill. Maybe its his 17th century style. John Gill was one of the finest Baptist preaches God gave to us. Wholly orthodox in his preaching and more read than any man I have heard of. I thought Gill's comment is a fine one.

And it is not Gill's teaching that the one born of GOd cannot make sin his business, as in trade, it is God by the Apostle John. But you know that. The one who makes a practice of sin, habitually, is of the devil. The one who practices righteousness is of God. By this we know the children of the devil and the children of God.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

O, never mind. This merry-go-round is already on page 9. I don't want to jump on now.

Good day.

Your Hodge quote says it all.

 

[Brother Bob]

RB; habitually, is of the devil

Where do you find this word habitually sin in scripture. Maybe you and Gill could help me out. Also, you quote one verse of John, but fail to quote the other, "who is born of God, cannot sin", but you already knew that didn't you?

 

[Brother Bob]

Amy; Well, if God steps in as in Paul's case, and "violates our free will" as NP said, then it stands to reason that He would step in and stop us from committing sins, at least some of them. However, I know that we sin even though we are saved. How far will God let us fall is the question

I think He does step in. We are saved by His Grace and also kept by it.

2Cr 12:9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think teaching the doctrine of the saved being able to sin any sin known unto mankind is a bad as some of the doctrine that was thrown off of BB, for that kind of doctrine could cause the unsaved to be blinded and think they are saved, and be lost and go to hell.IMO

Also, please don't accuse me of saying the saved cannot sin:

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

 

[Brother Bob]

RB; why would it not surprise me that you would say that Gill was a great preacher?

justified persons are dead to sin, inasmuch as that is not imputed to them (free ticket to sin) to condemnation and death; they are discharged from it; it cannot hurt them, or exert its damning power over them; it is crucified, abolished, and made an end of by Christ:

But yet we are in need of an advocate, does that make sense. I don't think so, I don't care how great of a preacher he is supposed to be, or was.

sanctified persons are dead to sin; sin is not made their business, it is not their course of life; it is no longer a pleasure to them, but is loathsome and abominable; it is looked upon, not as a friend, but an enemy; it does not reign, it has not the dominion over them; it is subdued in them, and its power weakened; and as to the members of the flesh, and deeds of the body, it is mortified: to live in sin, is to live after the dictates of corrupt nature; and persons may be said to live in it, when they give up themselves to it, are bent upon it; when sin is their life, they delight in it, make it their work and business, and the whole course of their life is sinful: now those who are dead to sin, cannot thus live in it, (Amazing, and people do not catch how he switches back and forth, back and forth, like he is trying to find the right words.)

Gill quotes all that about how a sanctified person cannot sin and loathes sins and then adds this at the end. Kinda like your "habitually".

though sin may live in them; they may fall into sin, and lie in it some time, yet they cannot live in it:[/

Then he goes back again to the righteous be righteous but keeps using the word "live in sin", making a way for the saved to commit any sin, they just can't live in it. Wonder how many times of sinning according to Gill, is "living in sin"?

Gill's words are "living in sin"

RB's word is "habitually"

neither one is scripture, but I guess that part don't matter!

 

[skypair]

Can we back up? I thought this thread was closed but now see it isn't. JArthur wants to know what "spiritually dead" is.

You said spiritually dead simply means separated from God. I'm trying to get your full understanding of "separated". So how bad is this separation?

The separation is this -- after one knowingly commits one's first sin, God and that person no longer commune in that man's instantly "dead" SOUL. God cannot lead that person via his/her conscience anymore. Guilt will usually be "social guilt, having hurt a person, but no guilt regarding sinning against God.

However, the spirit is NOT dead. We can still hear and consider things about God and it is through the Holy Spirit speaking to our spirit (mind, emotions, will) that we can hear, know, and act upon the truth. By believing and receiving Christ, we are "born again" and God is re-enthroned in our SOUL unto new life IMMEDIATELY AND ETERNALLY.

Can he pray to God?
Can he talk with God other then asking to be saved?
Can he understand Gods Word?

Cornelius is the perfect example that a lost man can fear God, talk to God, and God will hear his prayers (Acts 10:2-4, 31). Indeed, Peter preached, "...in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him [God]." Acts 10:35 That is, there IS some "merit" known to God and for which He offers more opportunity to be saved, right?

Cornelius is the perfect "foil" for Rom 1:21 -- He knew God, glorified Him and was thankful to God! And being a Gentile, a centurian, he did this all before being saved! Cornelius received the "light" and God sent Him "more Light (John 1:9)!" an angel in this case.

And here's the gospel Peter delivered that day whereupon the Holy Ghost fell upon them as on "born again" believers: "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." (10:43) They understood with their minds, believed (BEFORE being regenerated by the Holy Ghost) and received. That is, though "lost." they were NOT "deaf" or "blind" in their spirits when Peter "opened his mouth to speak. Paul offers this same evidence in 1Cor 2:1-5, BTW --- he preached the "gospel" to the lost and the "wisdom of God" to the "perfect"/saved, 2:6.


skypair

 

[skypair]

So to the question...

...does the saved soul ever sin?

No. God never causes, encourages, commits, etc. sin and He has, indeed, "taken up residence" in our soul -- or alternately, we raised up to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Therefore, 1John 3:9 says, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." So no sin is acceptable in the "born again" soul/conscience. It is either

1) unknown sin (Psa 19:12 -- which is why we NT saints "wash one another's feet") or

2) inadvertant and confessed, or

3) willful and desiring repentance of. The Christian conscience will NEVER accept sin in his spirit or in his flesh!

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

...does the saved soul ever sin?

No. God never causes, encourages, commits, etc. sin and He has, indeed, "taken up residence" in our soul -- or alternately, we raised up to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Therefore, 1John 3:9 says, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." So no sin is acceptable in the "born again" soul/conscience. It is either

1) unknown sin (Psa 19:12 -- which is why we NT saints "wash one another's feet") or

2) inadvertant and confessed, or

3) willful and desiring repentance of. The Christian conscience will NEVER accept sin in his spirit or in his flesh!

skypair

Thank you, finally someone who sees the truth.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Where do you find this word habitually sin in scripture. Maybe you and Gill could help me out. Also, you quote one verse of John, but fail to quote the other, "who is born of God, cannot sin", but you already knew that didn't you?

To answer your question, the inspired language of the Bible, Greek. I have seen you do word studies, take a look. Other English translations bring this out.

I am glad that you regarded me as reading the whole of 1 John. The one who is born of God, the result, is that they do not make sin the trade-skill of their life. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is also the result of being born again. THAT is what the Scriptures teach. Check the Greek tenses and see if I am wrong. I will readily admit my mistake and give up using 1 John to prove the truth.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB; why would it not surprise me that you would say that Gill was a great preacher?

Because if I lived in his time, and within 2 hours of his church I'd join it in a heartbeat? When you come 1 tenth as close as to how God has used a man like Gill or Spurgeon, I might start listening to you as much. Or at least become as well read. Any man who is not well-read, will not be read-well.

But yet we are in need of an advocate, does that make sense. I don't think so, I don't care how great of a preacher he is supposed to be, or was.

To be justfied of my sin, not having it imputed to me, and yet needing an Advocate before God is the clearest teaching in all Scripture.

Gill quotes all that about how a sanctified person cannot sin and loathes sins and then adds this at the end. Kinda like your "habitually".

It is the Bible's. But we have to be willing to go beyond the translation to the orginal language. No room here to KJVO nonsense.

Then he goes back again to the righteous be righteous but keeps using the word "live in sin", making a way for the saved to commit any sin, they just can't live in it. Wonder how many times of sinning according to Gill, is "living in sin"?

True Christians who are born of God CANNOT make sin the trade-skill of their life.

Gill's words are "living in sin"

RB's word is "habitually"

Sounds ok to me.

neither one is scripture, but I guess that part don't matter!

Maybe not to you, or if you wished to pregnate this statement with a barb, its not getting you very far. I have derived my doctrine from the Scripture. And I take no small comfort that the largest part of orthodox Christianity is with me.

 

[Brother Bob]

I am glad that you regarded me as reading the whole of 1 John. The one who is born of God, the result, is that they do not make sin the trade-skill of their life. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is also the result of being born again. THAT is what the Scriptures teach. Check the Greek tenses and see if I am wrong. I will readily admit my mistake and give up using 1 John to prove the truth.

Says it is an "absolute negative", but what do I know.

3756
ou
ou
oo, also (before a vowel)
ouk ook, and (before an aspirate) ouch ookh a primary word; the absolute negative (compare 3361) adverb; no or not:--+ long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, (can-)not, + nothing, + special, un(-worthy), when, + without, + yet but. See also ou mh - ou me 3364, mhkoV - mekos 3372.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Thank you, finally someone who sees the truth.

Having been a Christian as long as you have Bob, I was genuinely surprised to see you commend this railer.

 

[Brother Bob]

Gill's words are "living in sin"

RB's word is "habitually"

Sounds ok to me.

neither one is scripture, but I guess that part don't matter!

You never said anything that I didn't expect. It is plain, Gill goes one way and then the other. He finds it hard to say a saved person can sin, but he goes ahead and says it anyway, kinda close to what you do. IMO

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Says it is an "absolute negative", but what do I know.

3756
ou
ou
oo, also (before a vowel)
ouk ook, and (before an aspirate) ouch ookh a primary word; the absolute negative (compare 3361) adverb; no or not:--+ long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, (can-)not, + nothing, + special, un(-worthy), when, + without, + yet but. See also ou mh - ou me 3364, mhkoV - mekos 3372.

I had seen your use of Greek before and thought you were more familiar with the languge. I am no Greek scholar either, but in areas of ambiguity the English translations are weak. We need to go the inspired language and learn. For that I have to rely on scholarship. My lexicons and dictionarys all agree as to the meaning.