Decisional Regeneration

[Brother Bob]

Sorry Allen; didn't know you were on this early.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Excuse me for butting in RB:

So you were saved with non-belief. That is contrary to scripture:

Act 16:31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

No problem butting in. All I can do is shake my head brother Bob. I cannot understand how I can so plainly that I am not saved apart from repentance and faith, and yet you say I am saying I am saved without faith.

All I can tell you Bob, is I was blind, but now I see.

 

[Brother Bob]

RB; I would use the illustration of Jesus healing a blind man. He did not see before he was healed, neither did I believe before I was born again

It is your words ReformedBaptist, maybe you misspoke, but you said you received salvation or was "born again" and then believed. Unless you don't believe "born again" is saved.

 

[Allan]

Why do you think Calvinists have a hard time understanding the doctrine of sanctification?

That was from a thread TCGreek began on it "A Mystery to Me..." and I type past a word that is left out. It should state 'some Calvinist" and not simply "Calvinists", implying all. Sorry about that.

I did address it somewhat though in my post here. If God makes us do and be conformed to His Son, then how come we still sin and desire those things contrary to the will of God and our new nature?

 

[Tom Butler]

It is your words ReformedBaptist, maybe you misspoke, but you said you received salvation or was "born again" and then believed. Unless you don't believe "born again" is saved.

Good morning, Bro. Bob.

RB can speak for himself, but it is a distinctive of Reformed theology to separate regeneration and salvation.

Regeneration, or "born again" is a work of the Holy Spirit in changing one's heart from stone to flesh, so that the recipient can respond in repentance and faith and be saved.

I know you do not agree with this, but the distinction is a common Calvinist belief.

Understanding this distinction will help us keep from talking past each other.

 

[Allan]

Sorry Allen; didn't know you were on this early.

No Prob, Bob. :tongue3:

I work the grave yard shift and then it takes a few hours to wind down so I can sleep. I don't get on here very often lately, much less in the early morning hours. But this thread has been constructive and peacable (as far I have seen) thus far.

Very seldom do these come along :laugh:

 

[Allan]

Good morning, Bro. Bob.

RB can speak for himself, but it is a distinctive of Reformed theology to separate regeneration and salvation.

Regeneration, or "born again" is a work of the Holy Spirit in changing one's heart from stone to flesh, so that the recipient can respond in repentance and faith and be saved.

I know you do not agree with this, but the distinction is a common Calvinist belief.

Understanding this distinction will help us keep from talking past each other.

True, but RB stated salvation and born again are the same thing. And that them being considered seperate is odd to him.

 

[Brother Bob]

Tom Butler; RB can speak for himself, but it is a distinctive of Reformed theology to separate regeneration and salvation.

Regeneration, or "born again" is a work of the Holy Spirit in changing one's heart from stone to flesh, so that the recipient can respond in repentance and faith and be saved.

I know you do not agree with this, but the distinction is a common Calvinist belief.

Understanding this distinction will help us keep from talking past each other.

Thanks for answering, but that is against scripture also.

1Pe 1:23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[skypair]

1. Webdog, it doesn't support your view, but it does support the Reformed view.

2. As been stated, like man has no control over the wind, so no man has control over the regenerating work of the Spirit. ***edited

Yet EVERY MAN FEELS the wind. And if you follow the "wind"/Spirit with your life, you will see where it is going.

What we DO have control over is whether we will follow the wind or not.

skypair

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Understood. I was not trying to over emphasize the "I" in your testimony but revealing your "I" is just as much apart of your testimony (and just as de-emphasized) as any Non-Cal, and God is just as a part of our testimony as yours (who is just as emphasized).

But now you have raised another question which strikes to another vital organ. You state that you are born again/saved and therefore you will naturally believe in Christ since it is your new Nature.

But that flies in direct contradiction to scripture that says believe and you WILL BE saved.

Not once does scripture ever state or insinuate once saved you will believe but exactly and explicitly the opposite - Believe and you will be saved.

Let's take this discussion a step further theologically. What we are truly discussing, since no one is denying that man is save by grace through faith, is really the difference between monergism and synergism.

In this process, let's find where we agree and where we depart. I think we both agree that no man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. We both agree that God's assistence is needed. Looking at historical theology, it is the Roman Catholic teaching that God and man work together, in a synergism. Rome teaches a previenant grace given to man so he may cooperate with God in his salvation. This cooperation must take place before salvation takes hold in our hearts.

Martin Luther and Rome wrangles on this issue extensively and the contention continues today.

What we, and the Reformation, and the Apostles of our Lord, teach and contend for is that while we were DEAD, He (not us) made us alive. Eph 2:5 For it is by grace we are saved. It is a monergistic work, that is, of one. We cooperate after regeneration, not in order to be regenerated.

As I have put forth before, we can no more cooperate with God from a condition of spiritually dead, than Lazarus could with Christ being physcially dead.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

True, but RB stated salvation and born again are the same thing. And that them being considered seperate is odd to him.

Maybe I did, I am not a perfect theologian, or one at all. I believe in another post somewhere I made a distintion between the new birth and conversion. And I have remarked a few times that salvation is larger than simply being born again. Encompassed in the salvation of God is the new birth, justification, sanctification, and glorification. I have also said that it most likely that regeneration and faith happen simultanously.

 

[skypair]

And it represents God the Holy Spirit in His operation of the new birth.

(My responses in bold print)

1. The wind = the Holy Spirit Yes

2. It blows = the new birth No, it blows = preaching of the Word


3. where it listeth (wills) = The "it" is the Holy Spirit, He blows (causes the new birth) as He wills.[/quote] Listeth = comes and goes. Doesn't blow every day upon you.

4. hear sound = we see the effect of the Holy Spirit's work. "hear" = calling. You KNOW that! Why do you change the meaning here when you insist it is calling elsewhere???

5. Can't tell where it comes or where it goes = It is mysterious and uncontrollable we don't really comprehend its operation. Unless, being born again, you follow it.

One thing wind doesn't do is force you to go with it -- no one is "blown away" by it without their own volition.

6.) So is everyone who is born of the spirit. Yes, they come and go through your life -- they are going somewhere that you don't know unless you follow (as you have Calvin, for instance. This is where the faith walk becomes "tricky." You have to have the Spirit to follow the Spirit.).

This startled me when I was more "arminian" in my thinking. I wondered, how can this be? All I have to do is pray an earnest prayer to Jesus and I will be born again. Um ---- the "wind" is this way, buddy. :jesus: MANY texts say "RECEIVE" (Even John 1:12 that you cite.). Then you can follow.

There ARE other "winds" blowing, BTW. Don't get confused. They are "violent" winds that DO carry you along like a hurricane or tornado! They are called "world" and may wrest your "house" from its very foundation!

And let us further add to our understanding:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born ... of God." John 1:12-13 It is certainly God that grants the new birth to those who genuinely believe, RB. And the faith that He gives them certainly comes by "RECEIVING" and "BELIEVING on His name" according to the verse you cite. I don't know how you get around those 2 things PRECEDING the new "sons of God" birth, but you do!!

skypair

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Skypair,

If I thought you actually had a mind to reason and talk things out I might respond to you. I have seen some reasoned responses on your part, and other slanders, railings, and belittling of me and others on these boards. I would like to see you apologize for those things first before we dialogue.

 

[skypair]

This idea here represented, that man has a part in his salvation, is in my opinion straight out of the pit of hell.

RB, I implore you -- step aside so people can be saved! Quite obviously there is another "wind" blowing into your life and IT is "hot as hades" (as you admit to getting emotional about it)! Salvation and the new birth are not truly "believed" if they are not "received." 1Cor 15:1 -- "I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received... By which also ye are saved ... For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures..."

And I will with all the strength God gives me, if He is willing, throw it back.

...and if man has a salvation that is his own, then he does not have the Lord's. But I think many are just inconsistent arminians as I was. Truly saved, but suffering from poor theology.

You followed the wrong "wind," RB. It sounded so much like the original that you "had no root ... but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." Mt 13:21

Who did offend you, RB?? What "wind" was it swept you off your Foundation into this hellhole of a remonstrance??

I looked and saw Jesus and believed. I turned from all my wickedness and confessed my sins to God. And He bid me to follow Him.

That's exactly what you did --- and exactly what you are denying to anyone else who might desire entrance into the "kingdom," Mt 23:13!

If this is not the testimony of every born again child of God, then it is my PRIVATE opinion that I am in doubt of that man's salvation.

You're been "born again" to Christ and then "born again" to Calvin, I'm sorry to say.

skypair

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Skypair,

Perhaps you wrote your most recent post without reading what I had written to you. Here it is again,

If I thought you actually had a mind to reason and talk things out I might respond to you. I have seen some reasoned responses on your part, and other slanders, railings, and belittling of me and others on these boards. I would like to see you apologize for those things first before we dialogue.

What say ye?

 

[skypair]

Skypair,

If I thought you actually had a mind to reason and talk things out I might respond to you. I have seen some reasoned responses on your part, and other slanders, railings, and belittling of me and others on these boards. I would like to see you apologize for those things first before we dialogue.

Please --- I say what I see. I could in no wise take communion "worthily" if I didn't wash your feet first. And you may become "sick and many perish" if you don't let me wash them.

Did Peter not say first, "Thou shalt never wash my feet" (John 13:8) but then later "Wash not my feet only but my hands and my head!?" He, like you, was very fervent. He, like you, did not know what Jesus meant at first.

I have tried to show you that in Calvinism, you deny the salvation to others that you yourself received. You WERE regenerated before you had faith but you were not regenerate when you received. And now you deny even the reception of Christ as the means of salvation. Woe unto you!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Skypair,

Perhaps you wrote your most recent post without reading what I had written to you. Here it is again,

I was, indeed, composing when you posted. We're crossing posts so I will procede to the next thread.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

On my way home from work I was thinking about our discussion last night TCG.

Why does God 'account' (or credit) Abraham's faith or his belief in God (and our's to for that matter) unto him as righeousness?

1. The Greek word behind "account" or "reckon" or "credit" is logizomai and it is an accounting term, dealing with numbers.

2. It is not to be confused with our use of "taking credit" for something done. Paul has nullified such argument (Rom 4:2-4).

3. Notice that "credit" is in the passive, signifying something done to you. God does the reckoning, precising because He is the one that give the faith to begin with.

For some reason THEY have capitalized it the way you see it, not me.

4. The capitalizing in the NASB is to show that it's an OT quote.

Why does God give man faith, so He can make man believe Him and then turn around and credit his belief as righteousness for him?

5. Because it glorifies God, the one who enabled the believing.

I can understand why Calvinists have such a hard time understanding the Doctrine of Sanctification, if God is the one compelling and making - why then does man still sin. It becomes quite a paradox.

6. Paul says, "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" Phil 1:6 (ESV) and then,

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" Phil 2:12-13 (ESV, emphasis mine)

7. Please, do not confuse my admittance to a mystery as confusion. I am happy to say I don't know how everything works.

8. If you, on the other hand, have figured everything out, give God thanks and glory.

 

[TCGreek]

That was from a thread TCGreek began on it "A Mystery to Me..." and I type past a word that is left out. It should state 'some Calvinist" and not simply "Calvinists", implying all. Sorry about that.

I did address it somewhat though in my post here. If God makes us do and be conformed to His Son, then how come we still sin and desire those things contrary to the will of God and our new nature?

1. Paul says, "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ" (Phil. 1:6).

2. "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" Phil 2:12-13 (ESV, emphasis mine)

3. On the one hand, we are working out our salvation in sanctification, and on the other hand, God is working in us both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

4. Yet we sin. Take that up with Paul. This is the mystery I am referring to. If you have figured it out without misreading Paul, then praise God for that.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I was, indeed, composing when you posted. We're crossing posts so I will procede to the next thread.

skypair

Since you have refused to humble yourself and repent of your railing, but continue in them, and declares "woes" on me now, I will cease trying I just can't see any good or fruit in wrangling with you skypair. Do not expect me to dialogue with you. And if you continue to barage me with your negative rhetoric I will be forced to put you on ignore. I mean no malice in this at all.