Define Idolatry

[webdog]

By this definition, where speaking to a spirit is automatically idolatry, then casting out a demon is also idolatry. Reductio ad absurdum. If you differentiate between different types of speaking to a demon, you need to also differentiate between different types of speaking to the souls of Christians who have gone to heaven. One can speak to a spirit without worshiping the spirit. Therefore one can speak to a saint in heaven without worshiping them.

Non sequitur. Casting out a demon in the name of Christ is in no shape or form the same as making a divine request.

 

[The Biblicist]

Praying is NOT always worship.

That is rediculous! Prayer to God is the most initimate form of worship in so much that God characterizes His house of worship as "the house of prayer." There is NOTHING more intimately an act of worship then prayer as prayer is coming before God and directly addressing God which requires complete humility and submission and adoration with thanksgiving.

If this does not characterize your prayers it is because you are not praying to God as prayer to God is not merely vocalizing words but includes the CONDITION of your heart and the state of sin in your life becuase you cannot pray to God in a Biblical sense while embracing sin in your life.

 

[JarJo]

Non sequitur. Casting out a demon in the name of Christ is in no shape or form the same as making a divine request.

You have to define "divine request". So by your definition would it be okay to ask the soul of Mary to leave your house? Since it is okay to ask a demon to leave your house? Your definition of what kind of communication to spirits is acceptable appears to be rather ad hoc.

 

[The Biblicist]

The bible doesn't give any example of eating pizza. By your logic, pizza is therefore idolatry. Reductio ad absurdum again.

1 Cor. 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Don't you give thanks over your food before eating? If not, you are robbing God of His rightful glory and giving it to another - yourself!

Another thing you are completely ignorant about is that the Law defines a righteousness that no human being other than a perfect human being (Christ) can possibly keep. That is precisely why Paul said,


"All have sinned and come short of THE GLORY OF GOD" - Rom. 3:21

1 Cor. 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

You are attempting to reduce the law of God to your sinful standard in order that you can keep it.

However, when you eat a pizza and do not give God thanks as the Bible commands you to give God thanks, you not only have sinned but you have denied God the glory for that food and thus taken it to yourself and acted as god - that is idolatry.

 

[webdog]

You have to define "divine request". So by your definition would it be okay to ask the soul of Mary to leave your house? Since it is okay to ask a demon to leave your house? Your definition of what kind of communication to spirits is acceptable appears to be rather ad hoc.

Wow, the fallacies flow deep (begging the question, non sequitur, red herring)

1. Mary's soul is with the Lord and would NEVER be in my house.

2. Casting out a demon in the name of Christ is a command, not a request.

3. Divine request is pretty self explanatory. Surely someone who knows what an "ad hoc" and "Reductio ad absurdum" are would understand something so trivial.

 

[WestminsterMan]

That is rediculous! Prayer to God is the most initimate form of worship in so much that God characterizes His house of worship as "the house of prayer." There is NOTHING more intimately an act of worship then prayer as prayer is coming before God and directly addressing God which requires complete humility and submission and adoration with thanksgiving.

Yet your argument fails to address other types of praying. Rediculous indeed...

If this does not characterize your prayers it is because you are not praying to God as prayer to God is not merely vocalizing words but includes the CONDITION of your heart and the state of sin in your life becuase you cannot pray to God in a Biblical sense while embracing sin in your life.

Let me see if I pass your test:

1) If this (your definition of prayer above) does not characterize my prayers [then] it is because I am not praying to God [because] prayer to God is not merely vocalizing words...

I don't merely vocalize words when I pray. Check!

2)...but includes the CONDITION of your heart...

Well that goes right back to intent. So, Check!

3)...and the state of sin in your life becuase you cannot pray to God in a Biblical sense while embracing sin in your life.

I can pray to God no matter what my life is like. Whether He hears me or not, or answers said prayer is another matter. So, Check!

Well it looks like I'm good to go.

WM

 

[JarJo]

Wow, the fallacies flow deep (begging the question, non sequitur, red herring)

1. Mary's soul is with the Lord and would NEVER be in my house.

2. Casting out a demon in the name of Christ is a command, not a request.

3. Divine request is pretty self explanatory. Surely someone who knows what an "ad hoc" and "Reductio ad absurdum" are would understand something so trivial.

re 2: So then is the line between idolatry and speaking based on whether the words spoken for a request vs a command?
3. I assume "divine request" means to ask something of God. But if the thing being asked is of a saint then by definition it's not a divine request. Therefore it would be okay. Unless your definition allows asking things of living people that would be idolatry if asked of them once they are in heaven.

For example, it would be acceptable to ask my brother-in-Christ Anthony to help me find my lost keys, but it would be idolatry to ask my brother-in-Christ-died-and-in-heaven Anthony to help me find my keys. (But it would be okay to order him in the name of Christ to stay away from me). Is that what you mean by divine request?

 

[JarJo]

You are attempting to reduce the law of God to your sinful standard in order that you can keep it.

However, when you eat a pizza and do not give God thanks as the Bible commands you to give God thanks, you not only have sinned but you have denied God the glory for that food and thus taken it to yourself and acted as god - that is idolatry.

I always give thanks before eating. Today I'm having a shawarma.

 

[WestminsterMan]

I will raise your dictionary with my Bible. Prayer in the Bible is speaking to God or a false god. Period.

Hmmm...

King James Version:

1.Genesis 12:13
Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

2.Genesis 13:8
And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.

3.Genesis 13:9
Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I pray thee, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left.

4.Genesis 16:2
And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

And it goes on... and on... and on.

Ka-ching!

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

Yet your argument fails to address other types of praying. Rediculous indeed...



Let me see if I pass your test:

1) If this (your definition of prayer above) does not characterize my prayers [then] it is because I am not praying to God [because] prayer to God is not merely vocalizing words...

I don't merely vocalize words when I pray. Check!

2)...but includes the CONDITION of your heart...

Well that goes right back to intent. So, Check!

3)...and the state of sin in your life becuase you cannot pray to God in a Biblical sense while embracing sin in your life.

I can pray to God no matter what my life is like. Whether He hears me or not, or answers said prayer is another matter. So, Check!

Well it looks like I'm good to go.

WM

The term used to address beings not present on earth is "proseuchomai" and it is NEVER once addressed to anyone but God. It is the most used term translated "prayer".

Other terms may be used to address ANYONE but NOT ONCE is this term ever used to address anyone but God.

This is the term used when describing model prayer (Mt. 6:6) when Jesus taught the disciples how to pray. This is the term used when Christ prayed to the Father whenever he prayed.

When Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah he did not use this term.

This term denotes prayer in a religious sense while all other terms do not denote any religious sense.

 

[JarJo]

The term used to address beings not present on earth is "proseuchomai" and it is NEVER once addressed to anyone but God. It is the most used term translated "prayer".

Other terms may be used to address ANYONE but NOT ONCE is this term ever used to address anyone but God.

This is the term used when describing model prayer (Mt. 6:6) when Jesus taught the disciples how to pray. This is the term used when Christ prayed to the Father whenever he prayed.

When Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah he did not use this term.

This term denotes prayer in a religious sense while all other terms do not denote any religious sense.

When Catholics say they "pray" to a saint, they are not using the term in the "proseuchomai" meaning. We are using it in the way it would be used to request something from another person on earth.

 

[webdog]

Hmmm...

King James Version:

1.Genesis 12:13
Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

2.Genesis 13:8
And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.

3.Genesis 13:9
Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I pray thee, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left.

4.Genesis 16:2
And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

And it goes on... and on... and on.

Ka-ching!

WM

I see...so you do not understand literal vs. figurative.

When asked how one prays (literally), what did Jesus say? Was Mary involved in any manner?

 

[The Biblicist]

When Catholics say they "pray" to a saint, they are not using the term in the "proseuchomai" meaning. We are using it in the way it would be used to request something from another person on earth.

Sorry, but this is the only term Jesus or Paul ever used to signify prayer as a religious act toward beings not on earth. All other terms are neutral as they can be used for any kind of direct discourse religious or non-religious.

This is the only term Jesus used to characterize prayer given toward beings not on earth (Mt. 6:6).

Most importantly none of the other terms are ever used by Christ or the apostles or believers to describe discourse from people on earth to any created being not on earth.

 

[JarJo]

Sorry, but this is the only term Jesus or Paul ever used to signify prayer as a religious act

Well there you go. Asking a saint to pray for you isn't a religious act. It's just something we do with our brothers and sisters. Problem solved.

I would never do real "prayer" to Mary, in the sense of prayer to God. When I pray in the religious sense, this isn't just talking to God, it is trying to know God and worship Him and commune with Him. It is spending time with God. It's about inviting God into your heart.

Speaking to a saint, a living saint or one in heaven, is completely different. It's just communicating a request to them. It's not about adoring them and wanting to invite them into your heart.

 

[The Biblicist]

Idolatry has its root in the heart and mind in two senses.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1 Cor. 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.


First, idolatry is the mental usurpation of God by denying Him proper recognition (preeminence) in any aspect of your heart and then by consequence in your life (Rom. 1:21). Whatever replaces God as preeminent in your heart and life becomes your god and therefore idolatry is revealed by the motive behind everything you do because if everthing you do is not for the glory of God it is glorifying another god which is anything that replaces God as the object of your service.



Rom. 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.....
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Secondly, idoltry involves a wrong mental concept of God. The reason people make images and bow down to them is because their mental concept of God permits them to give that kind of visible expression to God. Hence, idolatry begins in the mind with a wrong concept of God which in turn gives visble expression that represents their mental concept of God. Hence, those who deny the Biblical revelation of the true God are idolaters.

The bible never uses the term "pray" regardless of the Greek term being represented by "pray" or "prayer" to describe conversations between people on earth and CREATED beings in heaven.

The only term used that has a technical RELIGIOUS usage for "prayer" between humans on earth and occupants in heaven is "proseuchomai" and it is NEVER used to address anyone in heaven but God alone.

here are no examples of anyone on earth directing address to created beings in heaven and the only term

 

[The Biblicist]

The bible never uses the term "pray" regardless of the Greek term being represented by "pray" or "prayer" to describe conversations between people on earth and CREATED beings in heaven.

The only term used that has a technical RELIGIOUS usage for "prayer" between humans on earth and occupants in heaven is "proseuchomai" and it is NEVER used to address anyone in heaven but God alone.

There are no examples of anyone on earth directing address to created beings in heaven and the only term

There are no examples and there are no precepts found in Scripture where God's people pray to created beings in heaven or spirits that are wandering about on earth.

Hence, from whence does this practice originate? It originates from "MYSTERY BABYLON" religion which was embraced and Christianized by Roman Catholicism.

The bible defines it as "necromancy" and it was prevelent in Babylon and in Rome.

De 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer

Roman Catholicism just gave Christian names to the spirits they pray to when in fact they are praying to demons and the Mary demon or Queen of Heaven is one of the cheif of demons.

 

[WestminsterMan]

There are no examples and there are no precepts found in Scripture where God's people pray to created beings in heaven or spirits that are wandering about on earth.

Hence, from whence does this practice originate? It originates from "MYSTERY BABYLON" religion which was embraced and Christianized by Roman Catholicism.

The bible defines it as "necromancy" and it was prevelent in Babylon and in Rome.

De 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer

Roman Catholicism just gave Christian names to the spirits they pray to when in fact they are praying to demons and the Mary demon or Queen of Heaven is one of the cheif of demons.

Oh Lordy... You don't even understand what necromancer means.

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

Oh Lordy... You don't even understand what necromancer means.

WM

Oh but I do know. However, Roman Catholics would never claim that is what they are doing when seeking/enquiring (Heb. Darash - Deut. 18:11) the dead - Deut. 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Oh but I do know. However, Roman Catholics would never claim that is what they are doing when seeking/enquiring (Heb. Darash - Deut. 18:11) the dead - Deut. 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

nec·ro·man·cy noun \ˈne-krə-ˌman(t)-sē\
Definition of NECROMANCY
1: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events
2: magic, sorcery — nec·ro·man·cer \-sər\ noun
— nec·ro·man·tic \ˌne-krə-ˈman-tik\ adjective
— nec·ro·man·ti·cal·ly \-ti-k(ə-)lē\ adverb

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/necromancy

Ref: Saul and the Witch of Endor

Simply by implication, you are attempting to paint Catholics with the brush of the occult. That's a cheap shot.

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

nec·ro·man·cy noun \ˈne-krə-ˌman(t)-sē\
Definition of NECROMANCY
1: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events
2: magic, sorcery — nec·ro·man·cer \-sər\ noun
— nec·ro·man·tic \ˌne-krə-ˈman-tik\ adjective
— nec·ro·man·ti·cal·ly \-ti-k(ə-)lē\ adverb

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/necromancy

Ref: Saul and the Witch of Endor

Simply by implication, you are attempting to paint Catholics with the brush of the occult. That's a cheap shot.

WM

The price was right!