The bible says that the saints in heaven present our prayers to God. It's in revelation 5:8.
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Define Idolatry
- Thread starter JarJo
- Start date
The bible says that the saints in heaven present our prayers to God. It's in revelation 5:8.
WestminsterMan
New Member
Oh right... It's the old "your argument isn't with me - its with God" tactic. As if you know the mind of God!
WM
bible states that while Satan/angels/demons can hear us, NEVER says to talk and converse with/to ANY, JUST to God!
Are you disobedient to God?
WestminsterMan
New Member
So, if we didn't know any better, then God would not look on the practice as the sin of Idolatry and we'd be good to go. Well, that kind of blows away the entire argument then doesn't it? Yeeeehawww!
WM
I do for a fact...
EVERTHING that God intends for us to know is in the Bible...
NOTHING else that we need to learn/know/do in the spiritual sense id any where else!
it is the final/supreme/only source of divine revelation to us. period!
WestminsterMan
New Member
So... some creatures (demons) can hear us, but others (saints in heaven) cannot? I see....
Probably - and I would venture to say that everyone on Earth right now is in the same boat - more or less. You see, disobediance to God IS sin. Are you without sin there, DaChaser1?
WM
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Here's how I see it. The apostles figured things out in stages. At first they assumed Jesus was coming back in their lifetime, but later realized they were in for the long haul. Towards the end of the apostolic age, John and the others started to realize that the apostles who had died (Peter, Paul, etc.) were interceeding for them in heaven. The practice of asking for their intercession began late in the apostolic age after most of the NT had been written. We see suggestions of this practice in the book of revelation, but since it is a book of symbolic images it isn't as easy to read what it means.
That's just my honest opinion after reading what people on both sides say. *shrug* I did my best and came up with that. So since I did my best to understand I expect God will let it slide if I was wrong.
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WestminsterMan
New Member
Well heck, then let's close all of the schools, universities and burn every book except the Bible. Hmmm...
If the Bible said that it is the SOLE/ONLY/FINAL source regarding faith and morals for Christians, then I would accept that. However, since it doesn't, then I don't.
WM
I did NOT say that we need only the bible as Christians, was saying that while we can and do have others Books, ONLY Bible is divinely inspired, revelation of/from god, and it indeed is the supreme authority in all things regarding Christian faith/doctrine/practices!
WestminsterMan
New Member
Well then, I guess I agree. That view is one of PRIMA Scriptura - not SOLA Scriptura.
WM
convicted1
Guest
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
A Mediator is an intercessor between men and God. The point of 1 Tim. 2:5 is that there is only one IN HEAVEN and that is Jesus Christ.
Scripture please for ANYONE on earth praying to ANYONE in heaven other than God by ANY MODE of prayer???
What you are doing is exactly what the Bible condemns - trying to contact created spirits to help you on earth through what you conceive them to be mediators between you and God.
Have you ever read Ephesians 5:18? The proper addressed Person of Prayer is the Father, the proper means is the Holy Spirit, the proper basis is Jesus Christ as the mediatorial provision and all three are GOD. God is the proper addressed subject of prayer.
No room for Mary or any other departed Saints as they don't fit the "God" pattern.
What you are doing is nothing more than a "CHRISTINIZED" occult practice. Change the names to protect the guilty.
Wrong! Both on earth direct their prayers only to God through Jesus Christ. Your practice is completely paganistic as you are having all saints on earth REDIRECT their prayers THROUGH a departed spirit in heaven to God in heaven. The same utter pagan nonsese that has a child of God going through a Preist instead of going boldly before God's throne himself in prayer (Heb. 10:17-19).
You are asking the spirit you apply to to USURP Jesus Christ just as the priest/pope is a usurper of Jesus Christ.
They are not given the role of mediatorail intercession in heaven. That is the function of Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 2:5) through the indwelling Spirit (Rom. 8:26-27) no more than are given the role of being God in heaven. They would not dare usurp the role of God.
God is omniscient and omnipresent! There is no need for this paganistic practice that declares God is not omniscient and omnipresent but USURPS God.
No it is not! There is not one single solitary precept or example of anyone by any mode of prayer addressing created spirits except PAGANS and it is condemned by the Scriptures.
Your practice contradicts the scriptural limitation to Jesus Christ being the only Mediator/intecessor between men on earth and God in heaven.
Do you direct prayers to your father and mother????? If you do that is really DISHONORING both them and God and it is the custom of Eastern Relgions who worship their parents.
All of the above. When God confused the workers of Babel with a diversity of tongues they took a common false religion into their own culture and expressed it in their own languages. Cybele, Diana, Madonna, etc., are all names for Nimrod's wife, the root of all women worship.
WestminsterMan
New Member
Oh well... Then when someone asks you to pray for a spouse sick with cancer, you better just tell 'em: "Don't come to me ... there is only one intercessor - you'll just have to go directly to Jesus!" Since mediation and intercession are the same and all...
Revelation 5:8 is one place:
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Hmmm... looks like the 24 elders interceeded betwen God and man by grabing and collecting the prayers of those on earth. It looks like God gave them the authority to do that.
Hardly. Look - I understand that you need intercession to be synonomous with mediation in order to keep that argument going. Fortunately, they are not and all of your protestations will not make it so.
Yet that's not what you said:
I can only respond to that which you write.
Well, if you believe that all prayer is worship, then I can see how you might arrive at that conclusion.
Oh I see...
Revelation 5:8 pretty much destroys that argument.
That makes about as much sense as you praying for someone else makes you a "usurper" of Jesus Christ.
Your entire premise falls on the fallacious notion that mediation and intercession are synonomous.
Well, since He has those properties and no other creature does, then He can certainly allow others to hear poeple on earth just as He allows Satan and his crew to do the same - AND just as He does in Revelation 5:8!
False premise... see the above.
Wow - that point went right right on by you didn't it. The point is that honor or veneration isn't the same act as worship.
They might have done that, however, that doesn't advance you accusation against the Catholic Church. Total - hog wash!
WM
there is only one intercessor - you'll just have to go directly to Jesus!" Since mediation and intercession are the same and all...
That is right!
I will never come to you and ask you to TAKE MY PLACE in going to God. I will ask you to pray WITH me as I direct MY PRAY TO GOD and while you direct your prayer TO GOD!
There is not one precept or example in Scripture where any saved person ever addressed a spirit by any way you interpret the word "pray" or "prayer" except that Spirit being God outside of paganism.
That is your intepretation. The vials full of odors are said to be the prayers of the saints. It does not say the saints addressed these prayers to the 24 elders or the four beasts. This is merely a symbolic jesture that justifes Christ taking the book and claiming back the earth and carrying out the prayers of the saints.
Mediation is intercession but not all intercession is mediation.
When saints on earth pray WITH us to God for our needs that is interecessory pray. They do not pray FOR us - meaning we do not forfeit our right to directly address God through Jesus Christ by instead addressing our prayers to them and then from them they transfer our prayers to them unto to God - that is paganism and that is Roman Catholicism.
Jesus is the only mediator and therefore our prayers are dircted through him and thus to him in the sense of a mediator but their destination is to the Father which receives them through Christ. Our prayers are empowered by the Holy Spirit, meaning he leads us how to pray according to the will of God (Rom. 8:26-27). Hence, the whole Godhead is involved in our true praying. Christ stands as the IMMEDIATE object of prayer because he is the MEDIATOR through which our prayers proceed to the Father.
The ONLY term that stands for RELIGIOUS praying in the scriptures is "proseuchomai" and it only has God for its addresee. All other terms do not necessarily constitute RELIGOUS praying. RELIGIOUS praying is worship and always is worship in the Scriptures.
No, it does not. Prove that the prayers in the vials were directed toward the 24 elders and beasts! You can't! Hence, it is a MOOT passage. Like the cults you are forced to go to higly symbolic and ambiguous texts in Revelation to establish a major practice (JW's Rev. 7; SDA - Rev. 12-14; etc.).
You don't understand what I said. There is a distinction between intercessory prayer and acting as a Mediator. Christ as our Mediator makes intercession in our behalf , because we are not in heaven and He is, we cannot come personally before the throne of God but he can.
However, saints on earth cannot act as a Mediator intercessor because they are not in heaven. They can pray WITH us by directing their prayers to the same MEDIATOR we address our prayers. However, they cannot take the place of the Mediator either in being the object of our RELIGIOUS praying or bringing our prayers before the Father in heaven.
Neither can spirits in heaven take the place of Christ as our Mediator in regard to RELIGIOUS prayers. First, because our RELIGIOUS prayers are directed to God through Christ and not to them. Second, because they are not appointed Mediators of our prayers in heaven. They do not take our prayers unto the Father as that is the work of Jesus Christ in heaven as it is where he acts as MEDIATOR between man on earth and God in heaven.
False! Revelation 5:8 are SYMBOLIC of the temple in heaven where God is enthroned. This text does not say such prayers were directed to anyone but God. The symbolism simply portrays the time for God to answer those prayers by His wrath toward the kingdom of Satan.
It is the same thing when it is RELIGIOUS veneration and all RELIGIOUS praying is veneration/worship. Again, the only term in scripture used for RELIGIOUS praying is "proseuchomai" and it is NEVER directed to anyone in heaven but God.
Oh yes it does, because it is Roman Catholicism that "Christianized" Roman Cybel by the name of "Mary."
there is only one intercessor - you'll just have to go directly to Jesus!" Since mediation and intercession are the same and all...
That is right!
I will never come to you and ask you to TAKE MY PLACE in going to God. I will ask you to pray WITH me as I direct MY PRAY TO GOD and while you direct your prayer TO GOD!
There is not one precept or example in Scripture where any saved person ever addressed a spirit by any way you interpret the word "pray" or "prayer" except that Spirit being God outside of paganism.
That is your intepretation. The vials full of odors are said to be the prayers of the saints. It does not say the saints addressed these prayers to the 24 elders or the four beasts. This is merely a symbolic jesture that justifes Christ taking the book and claiming back the earth and carrying out the prayers of the saints.
Mediation is intercession but not all intercession is mediation.
When saints on earth pray WITH us to God for our needs that is interecessory pray. They do not pray FOR us - meaning we do not forfeit our right to directly address God through Jesus Christ by instead addressing our prayers to them and then from them they transfer our prayers to them unto to God - that is paganism and that is Roman Catholicism.
Jesus is the only mediator and therefore our prayers are dircted through him and thus to him in the sense of a mediator but their destination is to the Father which receives them through Christ. Our prayers are empowered by the Holy Spirit, meaning he leads us how to pray according to the will of God (Rom. 8:26-27). Hence, the whole Godhead is involved in our true praying. Christ stands as the IMMEDIATE object of prayer because he is the MEDIATOR through which our prayers proceed to the Father.
The ONLY term that stands for RELIGIOUS praying in the scriptures is "proseuchomai" and it only has God for its addresee. All other terms do not necessarily constitute RELIGOUS praying. RELIGIOUS praying is worship and always is worship in the Scriptures.
No, it does not. Prove that the prayers in the vials were directed toward the 24 elders and beasts! You can't! Hence, it is a MOOT passage. Like the cults you are forced to go to higly symbolic and ambiguous texts in Revelation to establish a major practice (JW's Rev. 7; SDA - Rev. 12-14; etc.).
You don't understand what I said. There is a distinction between intercessory prayer and acting as a Mediator. Christ as our Mediator makes intercession in our behalf , because we are not in heaven and He is, we cannot come personally before the throne of God but he can.
However, saints on earth cannot act as a Mediator intercessor because they are not in heaven. They can pray WITH us by directing their prayers to the same MEDIATOR we address our prayers. However, they cannot take the place of the Mediator either in being the object of our RELIGIOUS praying or bringing our prayers before the Father in heaven.
Neither can spirits in heaven take the place of Christ as our Mediator in regard to RELIGIOUS prayers. First, because our RELIGIOUS prayers are directed to God through Christ and not to them. Second, because they are not appointed Mediators of our prayers in heaven. They do not take our prayers unto the Father as that is the work of Jesus Christ in heaven as it is where he acts as MEDIATOR between man on earth and God in heaven.
False! Revelation 5:8 are SYMBOLIC of the temple in heaven where God is enthroned. This text does not say such prayers were directed to anyone but God. The symbolism simply portrays the time for God to answer those prayers by His wrath toward the kingdom of Satan.
It is the same thing when it is RELIGIOUS veneration and all RELIGIOUS praying is veneration/worship. Again, the only term in scripture used for RELIGIOUS praying is "proseuchomai" and it is NEVER directed to anyone in heaven but God.
Oh yes it does, because it is Roman Catholicism that "Christianized" Roman Cybel by the name of "Mary."
Here is the bottom line. In heaven there is but ONE MEDIATOR between men on earth and God in heaven - 1 Tim. 2:5
That means, no spirit in heaven can take the place of Christ in heaven doing this work in behalf of men who live on earth. Those in Rev. 5:8 are never said to be the objects/addressees/mediators of such prayers.
That means, no man on earth can take the place of Christ the focus/object/addressee of YOUR RELIGIOUS PRAYING. They can pray WITH you UNTO the same mediator and addressee in heaven = intercessory prayer - BUT they cannot be the addresse of your religious praying as both you and them become blasphemers in doing so. You become a blasphemer because religious praying is directed to God not to men and thus you blasphemed by idolatry - putting a man in the place of God. The person on earth who has the gall to receive such religious praying as the MEDIATOR between you and God in heaven is a blasphemer because he has placed himself in the place of God as the object of religous praying.
There is only one term used in scripture for RELIGIOUS PRAYING or prayers that have as their final destination God in heaven and that is "proseuchomai" and it is NEVER EVER directed toward men on earth or created spirits in heaven.
WestminsterMan
New Member
Like I said...total hog wash. No one (except you) is claiming that anything gets done without God granting it. He can do anything He wants regardless of your protestations limiting Him to your little theological box.
Look...you are not going to change my mind that there is a difference between mediation and intercession as its clear that they are not synonomous. You won't be able to change my mind that all prayer, kneeling, bowing must be worship in a religious context. You need all of this to true just to keep your argument from falling apart. Ultimately, you can keep harping with the same worn out opinions, but it's not going to matter. You simply do not convince.
WM
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WestminsterMan
New Member
Deleted...duplicate post.
I placed substantive evidence before you and you respond by insults and diminuative attacks!
You are wrong and the proof is you have no intelligent responses to the evidences presented you!
I proved they were synononmous only in regard to the Person of Jesus Christ as Mediator but not synonyms when humans make intercessory prayers - you flip flop!
Facts are still facts whether you agree or disagree with them. The facts are:
1. Proseuchomai is NEVER directed toward anyone but God
2. Prosechomai is always used for RELIGIOUS PRAYING
3. No other term is ever used to address ANYONE in heaven but prosechomai.
Hence, it is a technical term for "religious praying" and religious praying is ALWAYS WORSHIP.
When you RELIGOUSLY kneel and bow before something created and pray toward something created you are committing Idolatry. Non-religiously kneeling and bowing before kings, or men in positions of authority is merely respect for the office - giving honor to whom honor is due. There is no RELIGIOUS connotation involved. However, if the political/governmental figure is demanding RELIGIOUS veneration then it is idolatry to bow, kneel or pray to them as it is toward anything created on earth or in heaven but God. These are the facts whether you like them or not.
These facts condemn Roman Catholicism as a Pagan religion doing pagan religious worship to demons.
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WestminsterMan
New Member
I never attacked you. I think that by wrapping yourself in victim hood that it is you who has no intelligent response. Good luck with that argument.
You have proved nothing except that you believe your opinions and interpretations are infallible.
But that presupposes a belief that your interpretations are correct. I've shown that prayer in the religious sense does have multiple applications. Thus, your so called proof is nothing more than white wash built on a false premise. There's an old saying in my field of higher education that seems appropriate here:
No matter how much you polish a turd...it's still a turd.
Well I posit that they are only facts in the vagaries of your own mind.
Nope .. That's only your opinion. Simply making the statement does not make it fact.
WM
No, its still Sola Sciptura, as one who holds to that view would be saying the Bible ALONE if authority as regarding ALL practices/doctrines, but also would say that other books/authors can be used/consulted, but that ONLY Bible is a revelation/inspired Book, and SOLe authority to consider to validity of ANY practice/doctrine!