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Definition Part II

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Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
JesusFan said:
except you assume that we still have full free will, but our will limited by sin nature!
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What is a full free will? You either have free will or you do not. You calvinist love to put qualifiers on words like "absolute,or full" Those have nothing to do with free will it is just the calvinist way of avoiding the issue.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
What is a full free will? You either have free will or you do not. You calvinist love to put qualifiers on words like "absolute,or full" Those have nothing to do with free will it is just the calvinist way of avoiding the issue.
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Do we have "libertine" free will?
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
Let's look at Hebrews 12, which explains where faith comes from.

Hebrews 12:1-2
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

The question is this:
Did Jesus author (found) faith for all humans at their conception, yet only perfect the faith of some...or did Jesus author faith at the moment he graciously saved a person so that they would believe, which then carries over to perfecting this faith in the believer?

Notice Peter tells us that the cause of our faith is Jesus.

1 Peter 1:3-5,8-9,20-21
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
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There is a difference between faith and the faith, Jude 1:3.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
does not help you in your vain attempt to have God give man faith to believe. The gift is salvation not faith.
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The gift Grace through Faith. The whole piece is the gift. The faith is part of the gift, the grace is part of the gift. It's a package deal.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
The gift Grace through Faith. The whole piece is the gift. The faith is part of the gift, the grace is part of the gift. It's a package deal.
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The gift is salvation because of ones faith, but you fail to see that.
It does not say Grace and Faith you have to read that into the text.

For by grace are ye saved - It is not by your Own merit; it is not because you have any claim. This is a favorite doctrine with Paul, as it is with all who love the Lord Jesus in sincerity

Through faith - Grace bestowed through faith, or in connection with believing

And that not of yourselves -The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to “the salvation by grace” of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one. Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible

It is our “own mind” that repents; our own heart that feels; our own eyes that weep - and without this there can he no true repentance. No one can repent for another; and God neither can nor ought to repent; for us. He has done no wrong, and if repentance is ever exercised, therefore, it must be exercised by our own minds
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
Yeah but free will in what way? Absolute Free Will? Free Will Within parameters? What do you mean when YOU say free will?
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Free will: the ability to choose between two or more courses of action unimpeded

Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, culpability, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen.

Only actions that are freely willed are seen as deserving credit or blame.

For example, in "On Grace and Free Will," (see especially chapters II-IV)
Augustine states: "He [God] has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in man a free choice of will," and that "God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards." (On Grace and Free Will, chap. II) Augustine
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
That is absolute free will. That does not exist.
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Your "absolute free will" is not free will, it is just your pseudo free will. It is just your calvinist view that causes you problems. But your view on free will goes a long way in explaining why you do not have a good understanding of scripture.

If someone had your "absolute free will" they would be able to save themselves, but since no one can do that then, no "absolute free will". It is just a boogeyman that you trot out when you have no ground to stand on.

Unimpeded - Not obstructed or hindered.
God given free will. You seem to have a real problem with God being God.

Guess you did not like the Augustine quote then?
 
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A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
There is a difference between faith and the faith, Jude 1:3.
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I don't see your point.
Jude 1:3-4
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

When you read 1 Peter you understand that Satan is prowling about, trying to consume the believers faith. But, Peter hearkens back to Luke 22 where Jesus tells him that Satan wanted to sift him, yet Jesus was praying for Peter so that Satan could not consume all his faith. Jesus tells him that when Peter gets through the ordeal, he should strengthen others. Peter does this in his first epistle. He guarantees his readers that God will keep them.

What we see in Jude is that same concept regarding the believers faith. Satan is out to devour faith. We are to contend and know that Jesus ever intercedes.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
I don't see your point.
Jude 1:3-4
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

When you read 1 Peter you understand that Satan is prowling about, trying to consume the believers faith. But, Peter hearkens back to Luke 22 where Jesus tells him that Satan wanted to sift him, yet Jesus was praying for Peter so that Satan could not consume all his faith. Jesus tells him that when Peter gets through the ordeal, he should strengthen others. Peter does this in his first epistle. He guarantees his readers that God will keep them.

What we see in Jude is that same concept regarding the believers faith. Satan is out to devour faith. We are to contend and know that Jesus ever intercedes.
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Faith is essential to knowledge. Without faith no one can know anything. Epistemology.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
What?
How is your comment related to anything in the Bible?
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Romans 10:17-18, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. . . ."
John 17:17, ". . . thy truth: thy word is truth. . .
"
Biblical epistemology. Faith.comes from truth.
 
E

Eternally Grateful

Active Member
kyredneck said:
Sure, I'll point you to it though I know it won't stick:

8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5



Sure, I'll point you to it though I know it won't stick:

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3



Yea, God's grace IS unnatural to carnal reasoning.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55
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Won’t stick?

Does not even compute.

You did not answer my question.

1. We are DEAD because of sin. The penalty of sin is death\
2. We can not be made alive, quickened, or born again UNTIL the penalty is removed.
3. The legal term for having ones dead paid or forgiven, or being declaired innocent of all wrong doing is called justification.
4. By legal Definition. A man can not be freed from his debt (death) until justification occures, in this case, through redemption.
5. Hence in conclusion. Justification MUST precede regeneration. No matter how you try to spin it. That is the facts. God does not change the t rules to suit people. He must follow the rules. He is all loving, He is all grace, but he is also all justice. He is the perfect judge. To go against his justice would be to go against himself.

If, as you say, Being made alive must precede justification because it was purchased 2000 years ago in the cross. Then all the elect would be born alive, not dead. They would be born in CHrist, Not in adam. In fact. They woudl never have to come to faith. Why come to faith to be justified if your already jjustified? That makes no sense at all.
 
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