Definition Part II

[AustinC]

Read just a few verses down, by grace we are saved through faith. And a few verses earlier we see hear the gospel, believe the gospel, are saved.

So it would seem that those that are dead in trespasses and sins are made alive and saved by grace because they believe.

It would not seem...if you read the whole, in context. Nowhere in these passages does God ever tell us that man's personal faith causes God to save them.

Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Van]

So, you declare that people who are dead in their trespasses and sins are made alive without being saved by grace.

Of course that is contrary to Ephesians 2:4-5, but thank you for being honest.

Putting false doctrine words in the mouths of others is the stock and trade of Calvinist false teachers, as they seek to change the subject from a biblical review of their error.

 

[AustinC]

Putting false doctrine words in the mouths of others is the stock and trade of Calvinist false teachers, as they seek to change the subject from a biblical review of their error.

You wrote:
"quickening does not mean enabled to come to faith."

I responded:
"So, you declare that people who are dead in their trespasses and sins are made alive without being saved by grace.
Of course that is contrary to Ephesians 2:4-5, but thank you for being honest."

Do you now deny what you said, that "quickening does not mean enabled to come to faith."

 

[Van]

You wrote:
"quickening does not mean enabled to come to faith."

I responded:
"So, you declare that people who are dead in their trespasses and sins are made alive without being saved by grace.
Of course that is contrary to Ephesians 2:4-5, but thank you for being honest."

Do you now deny what you said, that "quickening does not mean enabled to come to faith."

How are spiritually dead individuals made alive? Ephesians 2:5 Thus this lame brained effort is to redefine "made alive" to include "enabled to come to faith by irresistible grace." News flash, made alive means made alive.

Where are individuals made alive, outside of Christ or together with Christ? Together with Christ, thus after God sets a person apart by transferring them spiritually into Christ.

Since individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, the person had his or her faith credited by God before being placed into Christ where they are made alive. It is a lock

 

[AustinC]

How are spiritually dead individuals made alive? Ephesians 2:5 Thus this lame brained effort is to redefine "made alive" to include "enabled to come to faith by irresistible grace." News flash, made alive means made alive.

Where are individuals made alive, outside of Christ or together with Christ? Together with Christ, thus after God sets a person apart by transferring them spiritually into Christ.

Since individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, the person had his or her faith credited by God before being placed into Christ where they are made alive. It is a lock

Van, here is your unprovable assertion, which the Bible never states:
"individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth"

Moreso, you have already contradicted your own self statement so that you show us your contradiction.

God says:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
~ 1 Peter 1:3-5

Van, you promote falseness and assert that it is truth.

 

[Van]

Van, here is your unprovable assertion, which the Bible never states:
"individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth"

Moreso, you have already contradicted your own self statement so that you show us your contradiction.

God says:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
~ 1 Peter 1:3-5

Van, you promote falseness and assert that it is truth.

Does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say "individuals are chosen for salvation through...and faith in the truth? Yes. So the first sentence of the above post is an outrageous falsehood.

Then the false charge that I have been inconsistent. Folks, the inconsistency is Calvinism, a doctrine of unbiblical falsehoods, as I have just demonstrated yet again.

Where are individuals made alive, outside of Christ or together with Christ? Together with Christ, thus after God sets a person apart by transferring them spiritually into Christ.

Since individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, the person had his or her faith credited by God before being placed into Christ where they are made alive. It is a lock

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's because you're still using carnal reasoning.

Or maybe its because your reasoning is carnal?

Wow. So now you/re going to dictate how God must do things? How about some scripture instead of your carnal reasoning?

Who says you are not dictating what God does?

I am just showing how reality happen. In all areas.

How about some scripture instead of your carnal reasoning?



I didn't say any of the above. This is just more of your carnal rambling void of any scripture.

So in other words. You have nothing to refute me, other than call me carnal..

Lol.

Reality does not mean much to you does it?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This question?:



I answered your question with scripture, not carnal reasoning as you do:

You did not answer squat sir!

Those passages did not answere my question.

its ok

You have the murder on death roll released and made alive BEFORE they are justified through redemption.

New flash bro. Things do not work that way

Your CARNAL reasoning has failed you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You left out Ephesians 2:9

not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

God refutes your man-centered teaching.

You left out the part belief is not our work it is Gods work.

Faith STILL is required.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Answer the question please:
Are people who are dead in their trespasses and sins made alive without being saved by grace?

Not before faith.

Not before people stop trying to do it themselves and save themselves and in faith give it all to God and let Gods save them.

 

[AustinC]

Does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say "individuals are chosen for salvation through...and faith in the truth? Yes. So the first sentence of the above post is an outrageous falsehood.

Then the false charge that I have been inconsistent. Folks, the inconsistency is Calvinism, a doctrine of unbiblical falsehoods, as I have just demonstrated yet again.

Where are individuals made alive, outside of Christ or together with Christ? Together with Christ, thus after God sets a person apart by transferring them spiritually into Christ.

Since individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, the person had his or her faith credited by God before being placed into Christ where they are made alive. It is a lock

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says this:

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Nowhere do we find Van's claim:
"individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, the person had his or her faith credited by God before being placed into Christ where they are made alive."

You can't find it in 2 Thessalonians 2 or in Ephesians 2. What we see is Van's eisegesis of a verse and ignorance in exegesis of the verse.

 

[AustinC]

You left out the part belief is not our work it is Gods work.

Faith STILL is required.

Faith is a gift which is the EFFECT of our salvation. (Ephesians 2:8-9) Jesus is the author of our faith (Hebrews 12:2)
1 Peter 1:3-5 tells us that God caused us to be born again. That means...our faith does not cause God to save us. God causes us to be saved.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

It's all God's doing. Stop trying to take away from God and give yourself credit.

 

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says this:

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Nowhere do we find Van's claim:
"individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, the person had his or her faith credited by God before being placed into Christ where they are made alive."

You can't find it in 2 Thessalonians 2 or in Ephesians 2. What we see is Van's eisegesis of a verse and ignorance in exegesis of the verse.

Note the Calvinist use of a corrupt translation as the Greek word (salvation) is a noun not a verb (saved). Thus God chose you from the beginning or as the first fruit through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

The attempt to provide disinformation when the actual verse can be found in the KJV, NKJV, NASB, NET, CSB and a host of others. All you have to do is stay away from the Calvinist agenda driven translations such as ESV, NIV, NLT and others.

Note that the verb "chose" has purpose (for salvation) the method (by sanctification - setting apart - of the Spirit) and the basis for the conditional election - faith in the truth.

 

[AustinC]

Note the Calvinist use of a corrupt translation as the Greek word (salvation) is a noun not a verb (saved). Thus God chose you from the beginning or as the first fruit through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

The attempt to provide disinformation when the actual verse can be found in the KJV, NKJV, NASB, NET, CSB and a host of others. All you have to do is stay away from the Calvinist agenda driven translations such as ESV, NIV, NLT and others.

Note that the verb "chose" has purpose (for salvation) the method (by sanctification - setting apart - of the Spirit) and the basis for the conditional election - faith in the truth.

LOL, when you are shown to be wrong, you claim the Bible translation is corrupt. Yet, the ESV is an excellent translation.
What this tells me is that you reject what God says if God shows you to be wrong.

 

[Van]

LOL, when you are shown to be wrong, you claim the Bible translation is corrupt. Yet, the ESV is an excellent translation.
What this tells me is that you reject what God says if God shows you to be wrong.

Do we have yet another false claim by a Calvinist? Yes indeed. Did ESV translators change a noun (salvation) into a verb (saved) to avoid the fact this verse demonstrates our individual election for salvation is conditional. Yes indeed. Now I suppose some folks might not call it a corruption, but I call it a corruption, altering the text to hide Calvinism's false doctrine from exposure.

 

[AustinC]

Do we have yet another false claim by a Calvinist? Yes indeed. Did ESV translators change a noun (salvation) into a verb (saved) to avoid the fact this verse demonstrates our individual election for salvation is conditional. Yes indeed. Now I suppose some folks might not call it a corruption, but I call it a corruption, altering the text to hide Calvinism's false doctrine from exposure.

LOL, when you are shown to be wrong, you claim the Bible translation is corrupt. Yet, the ESV is an excellent translation.
What this tells me is that you reject what God says if God shows you to be wrong.

 

[Van]

LOL, when you are shown to be wrong, you claim the Bible translation is corrupt. Yet, the ESV is an excellent translation.
What this tells me is that you reject what God says if God shows you to be wrong.

What an (snip) argument, as if this Calvinist is so ignorant of the verse he does not know salvation is a noun and the ESV translates it corruptly as a verb to alter 2 Thessalonians 2:13 in accord with Calvinism's doctrine of unconditional election. Folks pay no attention to disingenuous arguments.

 

[AustinC]

What an (snip) argument, as if this Calvinist is so ignorant of the verse he does not know salvation is a noun and the ESV translates it corruptly as a verb to alter 2 Thessalonians 2:13 in accord with Calvinism's doctrine of unconditional election. Folks pay no attention to disingenuous arguments.

LOL, when you are shown to be wrong, you claim the Bible translation is corrupt. Yet, the ESV is an excellent translation.
What this tells me is that you reject what God says if God shows you to be wrong

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Faith is a gift which is the EFFECT of our salvation. (Ephesians 2:8-9) Jesus is the author of our faith (Hebrews 12:2)
1 Peter 1:3-5 tells us that God caused us to be born again. That means...our faith does not cause God to save us. God causes us to be saved.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

It's all God's doing. Stop trying to take away from God and give yourself credit.

You still have not proven that me falling on my knees and saying God save me, as apposed to me trying to save myself. Is me earning salvation.

Nor has anyone shown how one can receive the results of having ones sins justified (born again) before they are justified.

while my calvinist brothers I believe have good intentions. I think they base those intentions on fear not reality.

 

[JesusFan]

Free will: the ability to choose between two or more courses of action unimpeded

Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, culpability, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen.

Only actions that are freely willed are seen as deserving credit or blame.

For example, in "On Grace and Free Will," (see especially chapters II-IV)
Augustine states: "He [God] has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in man a free choice of will," and that "God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards." (On Grace and Free Will, chap. II) Augustine

we are restrained by the sin nature, as not free to choose any and all things now!