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demons versus mental illness

I Am Blessed 24

Active Member
Not to open the mental illness medication question again, however it is interesting to note that anti-seizure medications are often used to treat the manic phase of bipolar disorder, i.e. Depakote, Tegretol, and Trileptal.

Also, the drug Ativan is used for anxiety and panic disorders. It is also used as anti-nausea medication while taking chemo treatments.

The drug Tagamet is used for ulcers and also for hives.

It always surprises me that a drug is found to ease the pain of one ailment and a few months later, it is used to treat various symptoms.

I praise God that He gives the scientists knowledge to discover these new drugs and doctors the wisdom to know which drugs to prescribe.

If one's illness is from demon possession, NO medication is going to ease the symptoms. David wasn't the only believer in the Bible to suffer from depression...
 

amity

New Member
rbell said:
One slight modification here: Alzheimer's can be evidentially proven; however, it is a post-mortem diagnosis. Alzheimer's patients have a plaque-like substance that destroys brain tissue. It can only be found during an autopsy...although later-stage AD is a pretty clear diagnosis from symptoms. Thus, most medical diagnoses for dementia will say something like, "Dementia, possible Alzheimer's."
But do they know what causes it? Not yet I don't think. Or do they?

And I am Blessed, I would put Jeremiah down as a likely sufferer from depression. Of course he had quite a bit to be depressed about.

I don't think demonic possession would necessarily involve visible illness. Have you ever known anyone who was not only quite functional, but super-competent and very personable, but in reality their motivations were unremittingly evil? Satan appears as an angel of light, quite attractive.
 
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rbell

Active Member
amity said:
But do they know what causes it? Not yet I don't think. Or do they?

THeories abound, but no...they don't understand the cause as of yet.

I was just pointing out that we can actually see a structural degeneration of the brain in a post-mortem examination of an advanced Alzheimer's patient.

I misunderstood your post, I guess.
 

amity

New Member
donnA said:
If depression is caused by demon possession, then can christian be demon possessed?
On a bad day, I suppose. Maybe if we were following God's word entirely faithfully and truly knew nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified, we would not be leaving ourselves open to attack and we would be immune, but that is not a reality for anyone. To the extent that we are all sinners and worldly, we leave a more or less open door for Satan's wiles.

donnA said:
Also explain why anyone should believe anything medical coming from someone who is not a doctor, but presumes to make medical diagnosis, and tell people what if any medications they need.
Actually, the research is there for anyone to read. And I don't think we should rely entirely on "experts" to do the diagnosing and treating. We should all take responsibility to inform ourselves in regard to problems affecting our own health or that of our loved ones. It ain't rocket science. That same friend who had the temporal lobe epilepsy discovered on her own that Dilantin counteracts birth control pills by reading primary source studies, etc. Her "expert" doctor did not know this. Medicine is a for-profit industry like any other, and we should be informed consumers when it comes to medical care. The final treatment decision is always ours, and no doctor can make the decision for us unless it is an emergency situation and we are deemed incompetent to decide.

donnA said:
Theres a big difference between feeling sad by events in life, and having a an imballance in chemicals in the brain. If you can't trust medical science to know the difference, then they aren't trust worthy for anything else either.
I am not sure that there is a difference. I understand that sometimes the imbalances of depression are triggered by life events, and sometimes the imbalances arise spontaneously or as a result of some other condition. Poor nutrition for example can do us in with a host of medical problems, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear poor nutrition can trigger depression quite independently of sad events. Hypothyroidism can definitely trigger depression. The bottom line is that when someone is depressed, there is an underlying neurochemical issue. Which is the chicken and which the egg makes little difference from a treatment perspective.
 
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Allan

Active Member
pinoybaptist said:
My question is: Has anybody here ever experienced an encounter, face to face, with somebody who is demon possessed ? I will have to agree with Helen on this one, but not the way I understood what she was saying, if I understood it right.

It is the demon possessed who feels uncomfortable around the child of God, even if the Christian is not known to the community, or is low key as to his Christianity, in public.

We had a household help in the Philippines back in the early 80's who stayed with us for less than a month. As soon as she arrived from the barrios, and entered into the house, the first thing she saw was the Bibles on the dining table.

She started acting strange. Eyes darting here and there, and wouldn't look at us straight in the eye. Every evening and early morning my wife and I would have our family devotions along with the kids, and she would be by the outhouse, which was a short walk on boardwalks on stilts on the water, throwing up.

We let her go after about three weeks because we were afraid she was pregnant, with all her throwing up and strange behavior, and we didn't want to take the blame for it. Besides that she was acting really, really weird.

Now she had an uncle and aunt who were members of the same church we went to, and this couple came to us after a week and asked if we could come visit their niece, and we did. They were about a day's journey up into the hills, and when we got there she was sitting on a chair, greeted us with a smile and a hug, but still wouldn't look at us straight in the eye.

She was dressed up, made up, even, but her hair was disheveled somewhat, and her voice seemed to have changed, sometimes high-pitched, sometimes low and rumbling, oftentimes unintelligible in what she was saying.

Her relatives said she had been alternating between lucid, calm, and sweet, which was her, to violent, cursing, and incoherent which wasn't her (she was valedictorian of her high school class).

They have also sent for the pastor at that point, and he was about an hour behind having picked up his wife on the way.

We were talking with the girl and her parents when she suddenly bolted straight out of the chair and to the window and said the Pastor is on his way up the trail now (to get to their house you had to leave your vehicle at the village center, which is normally a meeting hall with a basketball court in front) and walk a mile, or less, up a small, dusty carabao trail.

She got agitated with every minute, until finally, when the pastor and his wife got to the house, we were restraining her. Five burly men. Four of whom were used to heavy labor, were heavily muscled, and one city boy who lifted weights and let me tell you, it was more than we could handle from a 100 lb, five foot two teenager.

To cut to the chase, some kind of "exorcism" happened. No, nobody beat up the girl, nobody tied her up, nobody slapped her around. It was the Bible, prayers, and I would daresay love, but things finally quieted down for that household and that girl.

Now she would probably have been diagnosed as schizophrenic or manic deppresive (sp?) here in the States, or maybe even by doctors in Manila, and placed into a mental institution and a regimen of drugs, which would probably have done her more harm than good.

She's now a grandmother twice over from what we've heard, and a faithful churchgoer. The pastor who visited her had gone on to the Lord, hopefully.

The thing is she could have very well been manic deppresive or schizophrenic if we didn't know the story, but how does one clearly define the boundaries between what seems obvious to the human eyes and what is of the spirit ?

You wonder how many of the "hopeless" mental cases out there are really demonic possessions, and how many of those said to be "demonic" are actually real mental cases.

I wonder about people like Manson, and Richard Speck, or Ted Bundy, Gacy, and even the gangsters of the roaring 20's and 30's. Or cult leaders like Jim Jones and those of Heaven's Gate and others, and even so-called "Christian" leaders of today.
I have been face to face with people (plural) who were demon possessed.
My sister (a pagan witch) WAS one of them.

Your assumption the demons are the ones uncomforatable around believers is lacking ALL biblical proof. We KNOW they were uncomformitable around Jesus Christ in the flesh. And We know from scripture a demon possessed woman followed Paul (indwelt with the Holy Spirit) around telling everyone to hear what Paul was speaking for Paul was preaching the gospel of salvation. After a few days of that, Paul turned and cast the demon out.
Doesn't sound like she was to uncomforatable now does it? Here it is:
Act 16:16 ¶ And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

Act 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

Act 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

It isn't the leather bound bible with words in Red the demons fear and tremble but that to which the believer will speak those words of faith from.
 
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tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
amity said:
I don't think demonic possession would necessarily involve visible illness. Have you ever known anyone who was not only quite functional, but super-competent and very personable, but in reality their motivations were unremittingly evil? Satan appears as an angel of light, quite attractive.


Can anyone say "election year"? I can think of at least one person this describes....

oooops wrong forum.
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
The 'Second String' Bible says:

Sirach 38:1-7 (KJV1611 Edition):
Honour a Phisitian with the honour due vnto him,
for the vses which you may haue of him:
for the Lord hath created him.
2 For of the most High commeth healing,
and he shall receiue honour of the King.
3 The skill of the Phisitian shall lift vp his head:
and in the sight of great men he shalbe in admiration.
4 The Lord hath created medicines out of the earth;
and he that is wise will not abhorre them
.
5 Was not the water made sweet with wood,
that the vertue thereof might be knowen?
6 And he hath giuen men skill,
that hee might be honoured in his marueilous workes.
7 With such doeth he heale
and taketh away their paines.
 

donnA

Active Member
amity said:
On a bad day, I suppose. Maybe if we were following God's word entirely faithfully and truly knew nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified, we would not be leaving ourselves open to attack and we would be immune, but that is not a reality for anyone. To the extent that we are all sinners and worldly, we leave a more or less open door for Satan's wiles.

Actually, the research is there for anyone to read. And I don't think we should rely entirely on "experts" to do the diagnosing and treating. We should all take responsibility to inform ourselves in regard to problems affecting our own health or that of our loved ones. It ain't rocket science. That same friend who had the temporal lobe epilepsy discovered on her own that Dilantin counteracts birth control pills by reading primary source studies, etc. Her "expert" doctor did not know this. Medicine is a for-profit industry like any other, and we should be informed consumers when it comes to medical care. The final treatment decision is always ours, and no doctor can make the decision for us unless it is an emergency situation and we are deemed incompetent to decide.

I am not sure that there is a difference. I understand that sometimes the imbalances of depression are triggered by life events, and sometimes the imbalances arise spontaneously or as a result of some other condition. Poor nutrition for example can do us in with a host of medical problems, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear poor nutrition can trigger depression quite independently of sad events. Hypothyroidism can definitely trigger depression. The bottom line is that when someone is depressed, there is an underlying neurochemical issue. Which is the chicken and which the egg makes little difference from a treatment perspective.

Your right, the information is out there for anyone to read, I've posted it enough over the years here. Problem is they don't read it. Apparently some have a hatred toward medicine and doctors. Yet I am sure they use them for themselves and their families. It's just fine for people to make their own medical decisions, they should, but here on the BB you aren't a chrsitan if you use doctors and medications for diseases, and other people get to pick which diseases and which medications for you. They know nothing about you and your condition, but they make spiritual judgements about you, and medical diagonsis and treatments, different then your doctors, thats pratcing medicine without a license, and one guy a few months ago tried to claim it wasn't illegal to pratice medicine without a license, when he told a woman on here she had to do something about her condition differently then what her and her doctor are already doing and she was sinning by not following his instructions.
There is certainly a difference in types of depression.
 
F

Filmproducer

Guest
James_Newman said:
You should figure out what practicing medicine is.

Do you believe it wise, even Christianly, to guilt a brother or sister in Christ to disregard medical advice because you may or may not believe it is a sin? Especially without having any prior physical knowledge of one's medical history? That is very dangerous ground, imo. Besides how exactly does it help another in Christ to be berated when they are already obviously suffering and struggling spiritually? Take the thread Benz started because he was having suicidal thoughts, for example. At most we should be offering godly council in love and understanding. Under no circumstances should we berate another for their decision to see a psychologist or psychiatrist and make them feel sub-human and evil. That benefits no one and could even be classified as a "holier than thou" prideful spirit. It certainly is not Christian.
 
FP,

Do you think it wise to send someone to a medical doctor before telling them to place their faith in the Lord? Do you think it wise to send someone to man to give them pills for depression when Jesus Christ is the Peace Giver?

Under no circumstances should we berate another for their decision to see a psychologist or psychiatrist and make them feel sub-human and evil.

But if I remember correctly, it was not Benz who said anything about seeing a psychiatrist. He said a doctor. It was people who are supposed to be witnessing Christ who were saying he needed to go to a psychiatrist for his depression.

Andrew was responsible for bringing people to Christ, not pointing them to man.
 
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James_Newman

New Member
Are you trying to 'guilt' me into agreeing with you? I sure don't know what instance donnA is refering to, so I wonder how you do. But I do know that giving advice is not practicing medicine, no matter how bad she wants it to be.
 
James_Newman said:
Are you trying to 'guilt' me into agreeing with you? I sure don't know what instance donnA is refering to, so I wonder how you do. But I do know that giving advice is not practicing medicine, no matter how bad she wants it to be.

James, this is one statement I can agree with you on wholeheartedly.
 
F

Filmproducer

Guest
HBSMN,

I would never tell someone to place their faith in doctors ahead of the Lord, nor would anyone else on here, I daresay. I believe we can still seek peace from Christ even if we have seen a medical doctor. Afterall God has allowed advances in medicine and technology for the benefit of people, and that includes the field of psychiatry. I understand you disagree and I respect that. However, when someone is so obviously crying out for help, such as Benz, is it more important to offer advice in love and kindness, or to argue and berate to prove a point? Offer your advice, as you believe Christ wants, and if the person chooses to see a doctor pray for them. You certainly will not be helping them by telling them they are not really Christian and sinning against God. The only recourse is to take up the cause in prayer and supplication. We cannot convict someone no matter how hard we try.
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Filmproducer said:
Do you believe it wise, even Christianly, to guilt a brother or sister in Christ to disregard medical advice because you may or may not believe it is a sin? Especially without having any prior physical knowledge of one's medical history? That is very dangerous ground, imo. Besides how exactly does it help another in Christ to be berated when they are already obviously suffering and struggling spiritually? Take the thread Benz started because he was having suicidal thoughts, for example. At most we should be offering godly council in love and understanding. Under no circumstances should we berate another for their decision to see a psychologist or psychiatrist and make them feel sub-human and evil. That benefits no one and could even be classified as a "holier than thou" prideful spirit. It certainly is not Christian.

Amen, Sister FilmProducer -- you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:


We are here on earth to EDIFY each other, not berate each other.
 
F

Filmproducer

Guest
James_Newman said:
Are you trying to 'guilt' me into agreeing with you? I sure don't know what instance donnA is refering to, so I wonder how you do. But I do know that giving advice is not practicing medicine, no matter how bad she wants it to be.

No you are free to hold whatever beliefs you so choose and I will not care. I don't know what instance Donna is referring to, but after reading enough of these threads I have begun to see a pattern. Some people, not necesarily you but in general, are so concerned about proving a point that christian love and understanding is thrown out the window. In threads, such as this one, it doesn't really matter, but in those threads that were started by people so obviuosly struggling and reaching out for help it makes a huge difference. Besides there is also a difference between offering advice and telling someone that they are sinning by following a doctors orders, which unfortuinately has been done. Suppose that was said to a weak christian who really did not know any better? What if they did discontinue the treatment and sufered sever consequences, because afterall none us really can know someone's medical history, nor are the majority of us doctors? How do we know that they were not seeing a Christian doctor or specialist?
 

James_Newman

New Member
I suppose it all depends on your world view. If psychologists are smarter than the bible, then I suppose it would be wrong to tell someone to trust God over the miserable physician.
 
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