demons versus mental illness

[Filmproducer]

I suppose it all depends on your world view. If psychologists are smarter than the bible, then I suppose it would be wrong to tell someone to trust God over the miserable physician.

See here we go again... now please name one person here on the BB who has ever said psychologists/psychiatrists/doctors/anyone else are smarter than the Bible? No one has even said it was wrong to trust God. Why are you so quick to purposefully misrepresent what people have said? Isn't that a prideful heart? Is that edifying? It is just as wrong for someone to purposefully misrepresent your viewpoint, btw. Where is basic respect for each other? As a christian board it should be more apparent here than any secular board, unfortunately that is not the case.

I have seen people offer godly advice in addition to seeing a doctor. There are some of us who believe that God has given doctors the ability and wisdom to help us. Our opinions may be different, but in no way does that mean we are holding the advice of doctors over that of God.

 

[James_Newman]

No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Which debate was that, brother Ed?

The above question was probably asked in response to the
below statement:

Sister donnA has won the debate.
...

We are located on this board:
http://www.baptistboard.com/index.php
called: Baptist Board (BB)

We are located on this Forum type:
Baptist DEBATE Forums (Baptist Only)

We are located on this Forum:
http://www.baptistboard.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16
called: General Baptist Discussions

We are located on this Topic:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=38836&page=9
called: Demons versus Mental Illness

Because of this logical formation in which we find ourselves,
we were in a debate. Sister donnA WON THE DEBATE.
What she said was Biblical (correct interpertation of what the
Bible says), kind (no smashing of hurting people), compassonate
(like Christ - concerned with the spirtual hurting people, not with
mind numbed brutes), etc (lots of etcs).

Sister donnA won the debate. :thumbs:

(Sister Filmmaker came in a very close second) :wavey:

 

[sandinmyears]

It's my understanding that a person who is a Christian cannot be demon posessed. I have both epilepsy and bipolar disorder-- and I'm a Christian who loves God and depends on Him often.

When thinking about my health problems, I often think of 2nd Corinthians where Paul talks about the thorn in his flesh which he asked God to remove many times. God wouldn't, though, and instead said "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Paul goes on to say that his problem has caused him to depend more on God which has made his faith even stronger.

Sandy

 

[gb93433]

Eccl. 12: 6 "Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

At some point in time everyone will lose their mind wheteher it be the mind first followed by the body or the body followed by the mind. Death is a sure thing.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

FP,

Do you think it wise to send someone to a medical doctor before telling them to place their faith in the Lord? Do you think it wise to send someone to man to give them pills for depression when Jesus Christ is the Peace Giver?



But if I remember correctly, it was not Benz who said anything about seeing a psychiatrist. He said a doctor. It was people who are supposed to be witnessing Christ who were saying he needed to go to a psychiatrist for his depression.

Andrew was responsible for bringing people to Christ, not pointing them to man.

Christ is the great healer as well. He can cure any disease including those medical science cannot cure. So why go to any doctor for any reason? Isn't going to a doctor contrary to your stated belief?

 

[gb93433]

Do you think it wise to send someone to a medical doctor before telling them to place their faith in the Lord?

James 1:15, 16, "If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?"

When the person is in a car wreck and will die within a few minutes and they are unable to listen or speak, then, yes. I have many friends who are medical doctors who pray for their patients.

God may get their attention when they go into the hospital because they are sick and are also being taken care of by a doctor. Because of the great care a doctor gives he may be able to share his faith with the patient.

 

[ituttut]

Here's the new thread.

I say demonic possession and mental illness (depression or other) are two separate realities. What say ye?

Good question, and I agree. Mental Illness is just that, and these are more of a danger to themselves than others. They may become irritable, and rude at times, but they have no desire to harm anyone, and eventually can do great harm to themselves. I believe the "demon possessed" can hurt themselves, but have no intention of "killing themselves". They had rather hurt someone else. I believe Judas Iscariot was an exception, being the son of perdition.

Evidently "demons" were everywhere, working much harder with the heavenly intervention onto the earth, and while the Pentecostal church, and then the Christian church were in their infancy. Satan knew what was going on and had his followers all over the place. We can't imagine the war going on at that time. There is no way we can comprehend such things as "demons", those of the spirit world, as we look at such verses as Luke 22:31, "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat". Even at this time Satan still appeared before God, just as we see in Job, making request to have one chosen by God.

Satan is still the Prince of this world, and evidently still has access to God. I don't believe God will let Him have any of His to take to the lake of fire, but evidently some Christians may be allowed to be touched by Satan, and perhaps able to kill the body???????? God is no respecter of persons today. I have seen enough, and heard enough to believe Satan can have His way with some Christians, in varying degrees. I've seen suicide in my family, and churches, and those not of a church. It rains on the good and the bad.

We should all be wary and not believe we can't be touched by an angel of light, for the demons said I know Jesus, and I know Paul, but who are you?

We Christians are safe in the Body of Christ of Spirit and Soul, but not these Bodies. We live in these sinful bodies, and we Christians struggle when we see a strange and enticing flicker that entices, and if we "bite" we get closer to those "flickering lights" to see what we can see beyond those "flickering lights". If we talk to those that have "mental illness" we find out what is beyond those "flickering lights"….. Darkness. Going to a Psychiatrist can help almost all of these. The one's that get into really deep trouble are those who will not go to a Psychiatrist, but continue with a family Doctor, or some quack, or even a good Pastor trying to help.

Sin to me is like gaining weight. A pound here and a pound there. We have a fight on our hands trying to take off a pound here and a pound there. And you know what. Those pounds continue to come back. Once Saved Always Saved, but we are sinners and will die, but we won't die with ours sins, even if one commits suicide, for Christ forgave us of all our sins.

 

[Ed Edwards]

His Blood Spoke My Name:

Ed,

You are arguing with the Bible. I did not write that passage in Matthew.
__________________
The peacemaking meeting scheduled for today has been canceled due to a conflict.

I said: I'm not arguing with the Bible, I am arguing with
misuse of the Bible.

I leave it to the reader, either I am not arguing with
the Bible but arguing with Brother 'His Blood Spoke My Name'
OR
I'm arguing with the Bible.

I have no problems arguing with Brother 'His Blood Spoke My Name'
and know it is futile to argue with the Bible.

Here is something I wrote sometime between
1984 when I first posted on a Bulletin Board
and 2007 which is now (bolding is current for this
application only):
--------------------------------------
I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.

You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.

Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't let your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.
Don't let your opinion of what Jesus meant
get confused with what Jesus said.
-----------------------------------------------

Now, does anybody remember what the various
interpertations of the Bible was - you know, the
SUBJECT of this Topic?

 

[Jon-Marc]

FP,

Do you think it wise to send someone to a medical doctor before telling them to place their faith in the Lord? Do you think it wise to send someone to man to give them pills for depression when Jesus Christ is the Peace Giver?

I was severely criticized in another "Christian" Website for saying that a lot of depression is caused by a lack of trusting the Lord, and by self-pity and feeling sorry for one's self. Despite even one pastor disagreeing with me, I still believe that.

How much depression is caused by an actual medical condition that would require medication, and how much is caused simply by self-pity? Poor me, my life [is terrible*], and God hates me because He won't let me win the lottery. People get depressed because things are not going the way they want. That is NOT a medical condition; it is a SIN condition.

ALL of my depression in the past was caused by one thing--self-pity. Yes, I hurt from my neck down to my feet. I'm sexually impotent. One of my daughters told me she wants nothing more to do with me. The list goes on, but I have learned to rejoice in the Lord rather than feeling sorry for myself. Some of that I brought on myself. That is a lack of trusting God, and it's sin.

Yes, there are medical conditions that cause depression, and medication is in order. However, this nation is too quick to run to a doctor and demand pills for every ailment, ache and pain. My mother was like that. She was a hypochondriac who asked for pills for everything--including the fact that she "sighing" all the time. She didn't realize that the sighing was caused by boredom because all she did was sit and do nothing. People want pills for their depression that is more than likely caused by self-pity, or even just the fact that they don't have a life. I'm too busy enjoying my retirement and praising and glorifying God to get bored. The more we see of the Lord, the less we will see of ourselves and our troubles. As John the baptist said, 'He must increase, and I must decrease."

Pills won't make life any better if the problem is sin. I heard of a doctor who said the mental hospitals could be nearly emptied if the people could just learn to deal with their guilt. Guilt also causes depression. Been there, done that, and I won the victory through Jesus Christ and not pills or doctors.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

snipped

Grace and Truth.

 

[DHK]

People want pills for their depression that is more than likely caused by self-pity, or even just the fact that they don't have a life. I'm too busy enjoying my retirement and praising and glorifying God to get bored. The more we see of the Lord, the less we will see of ourselves and our troubles. As John the baptist said, 'He must increase, and I must decrease."

Pills won't make life any better if the problem is sin. I heard of a doctor who said the mental hospitals could be nearly emptied if the people could just learn to deal with their guilt. Guilt also causes depression. Been there, done that, and I won the victory through Jesus Christ and not pills or doctors.

Preach it brother! :thumbs:

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Preach it brother! :thumbs:

Chemical imbalances in the brain also cause depression. Seems to me this is much like diabetes. Preach it! Nobody needs doctors.

 

[James_Newman]

Chemical imbalances in the brain also cause depression. Seems to me this is much like diabetes. Preach it! Nobody needs doctors.

It may be more like diabetes than you know. Diabetes is another condition that can generally be managed without drugs, and is largely caused by diet.

 

[Ed Edwards]

James_Newman: //Diabetes is another condition that can generally be managed without drugs//

I Googled this:

Diabetes " managed without drugs"

The first page I found was this:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=153532

which said:

"7.1% ± 1.3%" of the test group managed without drugs

Strange that it was so easy to find 7.1% which I sure don't
think fits well into 'generally'. Of course, that doesn't prove anything.
But it sure raises lots of questions.

I do have a question.
Why is it alright for diabetes victims to take insulin for
the rest of their lives but someone who needs to
take Prozac for the rest of their life is a gross sinner?

 

[Hawaiiski]

I happen to suffer from anxiety/panic disorder. As w/ any sickness, I always immediately resort to God & His word for healing & comfort. At one point, I pondered whether or not I was being attacked spiritually. This condition has drawn me closer to God, but still exists. I certainly don't believe I'm demon possessed, as I resort to God, His word, & prayer for relief, although God may allow Satan to afflict me as He did Job & Paul.

Having said this, I've learned through the years that sometimes this isn't enough to relieve the symptoms. At my worst points, I'm unable to eat or sleep for days, continually experiencing overwhelming feelings of the worst fear imagineable. I thought I was going to either die or go insane. Chistians have told me to just relax, have faith, & don't take any medication---which advice I heeded. It wasn't until I sought medical treatment that I began to improve, although the symptoms seldomly reoccur. In fact, I recently experienced these symptoms, & I covet your prayers. As before, I went to God, then my pastor, then the doctor--in that order.

I know of another instance where a former classmate of mine in Bible College was on psychiatric medication. Another student persuaded him to discontinue the meds & simply trust God. The result was severe withdrawals which resulted in him having outbursts of anger & suicidal tendencies. He lost his job, got arrested, & missed an entire year of school until he regained stability under medical supervision.

From personal experience, I would agree that some doctors are overly eager to prescribe meds w/o offering other alternatives. I would also agree that some disorders may be more spiritaul than physical. However, some situations simply dictate otherwise. Rom. 8:21-22.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

It may be more like diabetes than you know. Diabetes is another condition that can generally be managed without drugs, and is largely caused by diet.

So if you come down with diabetes you won't seek the care of a doctor, correct?

 

[ituttut]

It may be more like diabetes than you know. Diabetes is another condition that can generally be managed without drugs, and is largely caused by diet.

Most Type II's can be controlled by diet. Those early in life however, especially before their teens, could never live anywhere near a normal life without the infusion of insulin.

 

[ituttut]

Chistians have told me to just relax, have faith, & don't take any medication---which advice I heeded. It wasn't until I sought medical treatment that I began to improve, although the symptoms seldomly reoccur. In fact, I recently experienced these symptoms, & I covet your prayers. As before, I went to God, then my pastor, then the doctor--in that order.

You can always tell the ones that don't (or have not yet) have themselves a debilitating bodily illness, caused by various as we live in these sinful bodies. It would be so wonderful today if we could just ask God and He would heal, as was possible for His Apostles to do. If it is His Will He will do it, but evidently God wants man to depend on man in such matters today, for God has furnished certain men with enough knowledge to take what He has provided to make salves, drinks, pills, by shot, and even electrically to help men and women on the rough spots.

It all seems to have started with Noah of leaning to make wine as a tranquilizer, and to make the heart glad, and just with all things, man has a tendency to overdue. We see evidence of overdosing just about every day, whether by drink, pill, snorting, or however. Then a little later someone learned how to make "strong drink"; probably some good ole "corn whisky" for God blessed them with grass for the cattle, and lots of Corn, and fruit of the vine. We now have other things made from what God furnished for man to make even better tranquilizers, disinfectants, and painkillers.

If it is God's will today for one to by pass what He has allowed man to do to ease our pain and suffering, it will happen, but we don't see many of what people call miracles, and many times these never mention that God had anything to do with it. I don't know if I've ever witnessed it, but many believe those of the Catholic church can do such things, as well as those we call "faith healers".

If it were me I'd head to the Doctor first, and let the Preacher preach for I know of none that can heal. If the Doctor can't help then we need all the prayers we can get, even though I believe chances of healing by miracle are infinitesimally small. Many of my prayers are thanking God for this time I live in with all the creature comforts, and medicines that work when taken correctly.

 

[Jon-Marc]

The problem with going to man (doctors) is that it is very expensive and unaffordable for most people. Health insurance is also very expensive and not affordable by many. Even with health insurance, the person's out-of-pocket cost can be in the 1,000's of dollars. My insurance pays 90%. That sounds good except that one bill alone was nearly $30,000, and I have to pay 10% of that out of my retirement income--along with all the other medical bills I have.

I'm not physically able to work any longer. That's why I retired early, because I was no longer able to stand on my feet and do the job. The older I get the more problems I have physically, and the more time I spend with one doctor or another. I'm anemic and many tests are being done to determine why. I will be having a colonoscopy done soon. I'm still paying many doctors every month, and the medical bills keep piling up even with insurance. I can't pay the full amount to anyone, or I wouldn't have anything left to live on until the next check. Some of them are more than my retirement check is anyway.

Unfortunately, sometimes pills are necessary--especially since God seems to be out of the healing business. However, While a lot of physical ailments are the end result of sin entering the world, they are not necessarily individually caused by a person's sin. I may be wrong, but I don't believe my physical problems are caused by sin in my life. I'm far from being perfect, but I'm not what one might call "living in sin". May 18 will be 44 years that I have walked with the Lord, and the Holy Spirit leads, guides, and directs my path and keeps me from much sin that I could and would partake of without His help.