Denominational division

[DHK]

So.. not one person in your church disagrees with any other on anything?

My wife and I have been married twenty-eight years and we still disagree on stuff.

On the other hand, don't you think its about time you guys got your act together? After all you are one flesh.
A little bit more harmony in the home would go a long way.

 

[FlyForFun]

On the other hand, don't you think its about time you guys got your act together? After all you are one flesh.
A little bit more harmony in the home would go a long way.

You funny.:tongue3:

How long have you been married?

 

[RAdam]

Obviously, there are scholars who know the Bible much better than you do who disagree. Part of the division comes when people make comments like this but do not know enough to make them. Pretrib Rapture may be incorrect, but it is certainly not a "house of cards." It is well supported theologically and exegetically.

If something is well supported theologically and exegetically then it wouldn't be such a clear violation of the clear teaching of scripture. Pre-trib rapture is built upon nothing but the imagination and well-wishes of men. I wish it were true that God zapped all of us out of here before the really bad times hit, but the bible simply does not teach it.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If something is well supported theologically and exegetically then it wouldn't be such a clear violation of the clear teaching of scripture.

It's not a clear violation of the clear teaching of Scripture. In fact, when all of Scripture is considered, I think it is really the only position that doesn't do great damage to Scripture. But that is really outside the scope of this thread. Suffice it to say that people who are familiar with the biblical arguments for pretrib may disagree with it, but they don't say it has no theological and exegetical basis. It clearly does.

Pre-trib rapture is built upon nothing but the imagination and well-wishes of men. I wish it were true that God zapped all of us out of here before the really bad times hit, but the bible simply does not teach it.

So you say ... but again, people far brighter and more knowledgeable than you disagree.

Which brings us back to the problem: Much division is over issues like this. You clearly hold a wrong position, and no amount of strong language from you will change that. But it is not a matter of your Christianity. And while you would be well served to be in a church that taught the whole Bible faithfully, since that would disabuse you of these notions, you are demonstrating the reasons these divisions exist.

The fact is that pretribulationism is well grounded. If you disagree, then that can only be attributed to the fact that you have never been exposed to the systematic teaching of Scripture in context. Having heard the reality of it, you might still disagree with it, but you would know better than to say it has no grounding in Scripture. It most certainly does.

 

[FlyForFun]

Which brings us back to the problem: Much division is over issues like this. You clearly hold a wrong position, and no amount of strong language from you will change that. But it is not a matter of your Christianity. And while you would be well served to be in a church that taught the whole Bible faithfully, since that would disabuse you of these notions, you are demonstrating the reasons these divisions exist.

Excellent summary.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Pastor Larry,

You should be aware that the 'Pretribulation Rapture' doctrine were not yet introduce to Churches till middle of 19th Century. Prior that, for many centuries, Christians always believed that Christ shall come again only one more time, not twice. So, it was obivously, pretribulationism doctrine were not yet introduce to them for long time. Were they are wrong that they believed that Christ shall come again only one more time? If so, why would you think that they were wrong on their belief? Please explain this to us.

By the way, throughout whole New Testament, there is nowhere verse or passage saying that Christ will come again twice or two times in the future, but rather, throughout N.T. books telling us that Christ shall again only one more time according Hebrews 9:28-"and unto them that look for him shall be appear the SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation."

Clearly this telling us that Christ shall come again only one more time.

At his first coming was, to bring salvation to the world by Calvary and his resurrection. Then, at his second coming, shall bring to judgment the world. Bible teaches it very clear. His coming is obivously posttribulational.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Pastor Larry]

DPT,

I am well aware of the arguments, and have found them empty. The whole "two comings" ruse is utter nonsense, as has been demonstrated on several counts, including that of the OT that prophesied only one coming when we clearly know that there are two. Furthermore, there is NT evidence of "two comings" (though I reject that terminology as do others).

Obviously, throughout church history, doctrine developed, and thus it makes perfect sense that eschatology was not widely studied in church history until relatively recently. If people in church history denied that there was a pretrib rapture and there is a pretrib rapture, then yes, they were wrong. That's not unexpected. Church history can validate just about any doctrine. The issue always has to be not "What did they believe" but "What does the Bible teach?" I think that is too often the part that gets ignored. People are not willing to take a serious look at the Bible. So they take the easy way out. I disagree with that method.

But let's not get distracted from the issue here. Division is caused when people disagree. That division gets worse or more antagonistic when people make statements like RAdams made that are utterly without basis.

 

[Enow]

John 14:1-3 deals with Christ preparing a place for those He saved in heaven, not pre-trib rapture. To attempt to make those verses fit that false idea is a blatant twisting of scripture.

So the words of Jesus do not count when He appears? How can He come with the saints unless the event of His appearing is seperate from His coming to set up His Kingdom? The saints cannot be where He is now if they never got there even for a time to say that they sat down and sup with Him at the Marriage Supper.

Did you know that the traditional Jewish honeymoon is seven weeks long? This is because it is a time when the bride and the bridegroom get to know one another.

And the Jewish tradition of the bridegroom coming for the bride is that he has to prepare the place where he and the bride will live, and when it is ready, then he comes to get her, even if it is at nightime.

I know He is appearing soon because of the falling away of the faith.

For you to not see the obvious in that no one will know the time and Him coming like a thief in the night.... how can that be if... we know that the great tribulation.. the seven years starts when the command to start building the Temple is given out? Doesn't take much to go from 7 years from that date and say.. that will be when He will come.. there about.

So again, the call is to be ready now.. examine ourselves in the faith... asking Jesus for help in having us be found abiding in Him... to put away all works of the flesh with His help... to stop practising those routines in the worship place that deny Him and the faith by applying the scriptures to use the meat of the Word to discern good and evil with His help again.

Otherwise... the consequences for not heeding His words and doing them will result in great being the fall of that house: :tonofbricks:

 

[Enow]

2 Timothy 4: 1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

I see not two comings, but one is the appearing which is seperate from His actual coming to set up His kingdom.

To expound further on the traditional Jewish marriage, if Christ was to mirror that, then He comes for those that are ready as judgment falls on the House of God to be excommunicate those that were not ready nor abiding in Him to go through the great tribulation to suffer the destruction of the flesh so that the soul may be saved in the day of Christ... as the time for that marriage includes a sit down with supper.

Not seeing that at His actual coming to set up His Kingdom on earth.

Seven years tribulation and the seven weeks of marriage: a coincidence?

I reckon we shall all find out sooner than we think as judgment must fall on the House of God first, and I do not see that happening at His actual coming since there is that battle at Armeggedon.

We all may prophesy in part, but by His grace, we shall know the truth fully soon as we shall know Him fully by His grace as well.

 

[Pastor Larry]

For the record, there are a lot of bad arguments made for pretribulationism that should be rejected (e.g. seven weeks of marriage). That has no exegetical or theological basis. But that does not meant that the exegetical arguments are somehow discounted or to be rejected because people make bad arguments.

 

[Ed Edwards]

So.. not one person in your church disagrees with any other on anything?

My wife and I have been married twenty-eight years and we still disagree on stuff.

I said my church members agree on the evangelical purpose of the local church. Non-salvic questions do not disrupt the work of the Lord (Messiah Jesus) in the name of the Father with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Like my wife and I, we agree on much. If we disagree, we agree to disagree agreeably. :godisgood:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed,

You are funny.......

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

God bless you, my Dear DeafPostrib Brother.

I was going to mention a $3 BILL named Bill Clinton -- put this isn't the politics Forum

 

[Ed Edwards]

RAadam

Brother Larry: //Obviously, there are scholars who know the Bible much better than you do who disagree. Part of the division comes when people make comments like this but do not know enough to make them. Pretrib Rapture may be incorrect, but it is certainly not a "house of cards." It is well supported theologically and exegetically. //

Amen, Brother Larry -- Preach it! :thumbs:

RAadam: // If something is well supported theologically and exegetically then it wouldn't be such a clear violation of the clear teaching of scripture. Pre-trib rapture is built upon nothing but the imagination and well-wishes of men. I wish it were true that God zapped all of us out of here before the really bad times hit, but the bible simply does not teach it. //


As a defender (by hope & the Bible) of the 'pre-trib rapture' I must agree with NOT with you on this matter. I also note that not all people in my local Fundamental Baptist Church agree with me on the matter. But we in my local chuarch do agree on one thing: the piano at the preacher's right hand. :wavey:

 

[JSM17]

I said my church members agree on the evangelical purpose of the local church. Non-salvic questions do not disrupt the work of the Lord (Messiah Jesus) in the name of the Father with the help of the Holy Spirit.

What about issues of salvation with members and members of other denominations?

What exactly is a non-salvic issue when it comes to obedience in the word of God?

What about those who claim that repentance is something we do and is required for salvation making salvation conditional can they be in fellowship with you?

Would you fellowship somone who claims to worship on Sat. even though it flies in the face of biblical standards?

What about someone who claims to speak in tongues? Are these salvation issues?

What about someone who claims that Christ returned in 70 A.D. would you fellowship with them?

What about those who allow women to be so called "Pastors"?

The list goes on, but the point is, can you fellowship with those who disagree with you even on issues that many claim are not salvation issues?

 

[Ed Edwards]

What about issues of salvation with members and members of other denominations?

What exactly is a non-salvic issue when it comes to obedience in the word of God?

Most anything that people like to add to:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saued.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse, and with the mouth confession is made vnto saluation.
Some things I've seen added:
1. Repentance to God
2. Repentance to a man
3. shouting bah, bah, bah, bah & jumpting a pew
4. baptism
5. going to deepest Darkest Africa (USofA)
6. going to the heathen in American (deepest Darkest Nigeria)
7. never waver in the Lord, ever
8. not ever, ever denying the Lord
9. not ever offering incense to idols
10.


(This list is suggestive only and is not intneded as a be-all)

What about those who claim that repentance is something we do and is required for salvation making salvation conditional can they be in fellowship with you?

I do, right here in the open on this board -- most every day. They are beloved brothers and sisters IN CHRIST. Just because someone teaches extra stuff (like baptism) in addion to Jesus doesn't mean they are not saved. Jesus saves, not repentance (though I know before I could accept Jesus as my Lord I had some pet sins to repent about).

Would you fellowship somone who claims to worship on Sat. even though it flies in the face of biblical standards?

I can prove it from the Bible. I do, right here in the open on this board -- most every day. They are beloved brothers and sisters IN CHRIST. Personally I worship God every day; only about once a week in my local church.

What about someone who claims to speak in tongues? Are these salvation issues?

Not a salvation issue. I do, right here in the open on this board -- most every day. They are beloved brothers and sisters IN CHRIST.

What about someone who claims that Christ returned in 70 A.D. would you fellowship with them?

I do, right here visable on this board -- most every day. They are beloved brothers and sisters IN CHRIST.

What about those who allow women to be so called "Pastors"?

I fellowship with them. I was a school teacher for four years and trained to teach Secondary School with them. When I went to work as an Electrical Engineer I found 90% of the men working as Engineers for $14K could not 'hold a candle' to 90% of the women getting $7K a year then to teach school . My church does not ordain Women. BTW, it is better to have the women run the church than the children (or, heaven forbid, the youth).

BTW, I only marry women with the spiritual gift of 'pastor'. They minister unto me, their husband & I minister unto them, my wife. My first wife (my locas church's pianist) died in 1999 of Liver Cancer at age 55. I'm now married 7½-years to a wonderful Christian Lady who is the organist of the same local church. (they never met each other).

The list goes on, but the point is, can you fellowship with those who disagree with you even on issues that many claim are not salvation issues?

1Co 9:19-23 (KJV1611 Edition -- e-sword)
For though I bee free from all men, yet haue I made my selfe seruant vnto all, that I might gaine the more.
1Co 9:20 And vnto the Iewes, I became as a Iew, that I might gaine the Iewes: to them that are vnder the Law, as vnder the Law, that I might gaine them that are vnder the Law:
1Co 9:21 To them that are without Law, as without Law (being not without Law to God, but vnder the Law to Christ,) that I might gaine them that are without Law.
1Co 9:22 To the weake became I as weake, that I might gaine the weake: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all meanes saue some.
1Co 9:23 And this I doe for the Gospels sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

 

[Darron Steele]

What about issues of salvation with members and members of other denominations?

What exactly is a non-salvic issue when it comes to obedience in the word of God?

What about those who claim that repentance is something we do and is required for salvation making salvation conditional can they be in fellowship with you?

Nonsensical.

When a person becomes a believer on Jesus Christ as Lord, s/he simultaneously repents of living out of harmony with His will.

The idea of faith on Jesus Christ as Lord without repentance is ridiculous.

Would you fellowship somone who claims to worship on Sat. ...

Yep.

What about someone who claims to speak in tongues?...

Yep.

What about someone who claims that Christ returned in 70 A.D. would you fellowship with them?

Yep.

What about those who allow women to be so called "Pastors"?

Yep.

The list goes on, but the point is, can you fellowship with those who disagree with you even on issues that many claim are not salvation issues?

Yep.

It gets pretty easy when we focus on whether the person is living to serve Jesus Christ, and less so on carnal desires to be agreed with.

Wrongness is not an acceptable reason for followers of Christ to divide against each other.

Ephesians 4:2-3 says “Be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowances for each other’s faults because of your love|; giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (NLT 1996|ASV).

 

[DHK]

My point is this. I can post a constitution (or perhaps it was a statement of faith) that every COC member must agree to, at least at this particular denomination of COCers. If they don't agree to it, they will be disfellowshipped. In our church to become members you must agree to both the statement of faith and the constitution, which is quite detailed. If you don't agree to it, you cannot become a member. Thus we are one in doctrine.

Evangelicals normally agree to disagree. Disagreements result in different denominations but among evangelical denominations there still remains a fellowship, at least on a personal level because we know Christ as Saviour. If there were no disagreement there would be nothing to define us as "denominational groups" that would gather together in unity. The COCers claim unity. But in reality there isn't. That is what I was pointing out. Here is an example of a statement of faith (I have posted it before) that one of our members took from one of the churches while visiting there:

The Rules & Pattern of the Church of Christ

1 It must be noted immediately that this list is not to be construed as a written creed. No statement of beliefs or rules outside the Bible itself is permitted. However, it will be permitted that such lists of beliefs or rules shall be allowed if written in a church bulletin or other published material provided that such is clearly designated as not being a written creed. This list is here shared merely as a convenience and with the understanding that there is really no need for such since all these rules are to be found in a clear and unmistakable form scattered throughout the pages of the collected books of the New Testament. It is also to be believed that anyone who truly loves God and the truth will easily find these exact rules and consequently obey.

2 By Scriptural definition (and for the purpose of applying these rules), a Christian is one who has done the following five acts of salvation (and in this order): hear, believe, repent, confess (a “Yes” response to the question “Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?” shall be construed as a valid confession), and be baptized. Of the several purposes and benefits of baptism, one must know that baptism is “for the remission of sins” in order for God to consider it a valid baptism.

3 A person who has completed the above five acts of salvation, but who comes to doubt the validity of their baptism (perhaps later thinking that he/she did not fully understand the primary purpose), shall be baptized again. One of the following scenarios must be adopted: 1) that the entire previous life of the person in question shall be considered as one outside of Christ and separated from God, thus only now becoming a new child of God; or, 2) that the person in question is being rebaptized “just in case”. In this instance, it shall be assumed that the person is doing so with the knowledge that baptism is generally “for the remission of sins”, even though he/she has may not be sure if such cleansing is really needed. Regardless, any rebaptism shall be preceded with the standard ritual of confession (one’s previous life as an apparent believing Christian shall not suffice as meeting this requirement).

4 The Bible shall be considered as the standard of authority for every spiritual matter. It shall be interpreted using the approved method of “command, example, and necessary inference”. Silence of the Scriptures on any matter is to be construed as a forbiddance of such. However, this rule shall not be applied to matters considered to be helpful in obeying any other commands (such as church buildings and their necessary furnishings, etc.).

5 Congregations shall name themselves according to the following guidelines: 1) the name shall be one that is found in Scripture and has within it the name of God or Christ (it shall be permitted that Paul’s use of the term “churches of Christ” in referring to various congregations may be used as a formal name and amended to “Church of Christ”); and, 2) the name may be preceded with a location description, that being the location of the church building, not necessarily the location of the church itself.

6 All those congregations who use the same generic name (excluding the location part of the name) and uniformly subscribe to these rules shall be considered as “the brotherhood”; no other Christian (one who has believed and been baptized but does not subscribe to one or more of these rules) shall be considered as being a part of “the brotherhood”.

7 Individual members of the church may be called by several different names that are found in Scripture (“disciples”, “saints”, “children of God”), but “Christian” is the preferred designation.

8 The church shall gather every first day of the week for worship. (Note: Most calendars have Sunday as the first day of the week. Cultures whose calendars are different will have to decide whether to observe Sunday or their first day of the week; no further help here is given in making that decision.)

9 The worship service shall consist of the following five acts of worship: praying, singing, giving, partaking of the Lord’s Supper, and preaching. The reading of Scripture shall also be considered as acceptable since it relates to preaching. No other acts (such as lighting candles, dramatic presentations or readings, etc.) shall be allowed in the service other than the following exceptions: making of announcements, recognizing of families who wish to place membership with the congregation, giving of Bibles to graduates or other special people, or other such special activities that shall be deemed as appropriate for the worship service.

10 It is permissible for congregations to have salaried preachers and other paid employees (such as youth ministers, education ministers, secretaries, janitors, etc.).

11 Acceptable designations for preachers shall be the following: “ministers”, “evangelists”, or “gospel preachers”. Generally speaking, all preaching can be called “gospel preaching” regardless of the subject. Sermons shall typically be ended with an invitation to be baptized or to rededicate one’s life to the Lord.

12 The Lord’s Supper shall be observed every first day of the week, and it cannot be observed on any day other than the first day of the week (nor at any function other than one specified as a formal worship service). If the congregation chooses to have another worship service later in the day, the Lord’s Supper shall then be observed again. However, only those who were not at the earlier service (or who otherwise did not already partake) are expected to partake. These same persons are to be given the opportunity to put an offering in the collection plate. These two acts of worship can be done in the presence of others who merely watch, or it can be done in a separate assembly apart from other Christians.

13 The Lord’s Supper shall consist of the following (and in this order): 1) a prayer of thanksgiving for the bread (which must be unleavened); 2) the distributing of the bread; 3) a prayer of thanksgiving for the fruit of the vine; and, 4) the distributing of the fruit of the vine.

14 Those who have not been baptized shall not be allowed to conduct any public part of the service. There is one exception to this rule: young boys who have not yet been immersed may be permitted to read Scripture in the general assembly or to lead singing or prayers in a special assembly for the purpose of training such boys.

15 Those who have not been baptized shall be allowed to participate in the worship by listening to the prayers and the preaching. They are further allowed to actively participate by joining in the singing and by putting money in the collection plate. They are not, however, allowed to partake of the Lord’s Supper.

16 The music of the worship assembly shall be limited to the vocal expression of words. No humming or other non-worded sounds are permitted. The use of harmonious or other singing shall be deemed as fulfilling the pattern of chanting as found in the early church.

 

[DHK]

17 No instrument of music shall be used at any time in the worship other than to play the first note or key of a song before the singing of that song. The use of a song leader is permitted, as is the use of a microphone for him. Song books or other such aids are also permitted. However, it is forbidden for more than one person to help in leading the singing, and no voice other than that of the one song leader’s may be amplified by artificial means.

18 Singing shall at all times be congregational; at no time is it permitted for one person or group of persons to sing while another merely listens, other than at those brief times when a song is written accordingly. In other words, it is permissible for different people to sing different parts at different times during a song, provided that all members sing at some point during the song and it can reasonably be said that they all sang together.

19 If a congregation wishes to permit a separate group (such as a chorus) to sing to the congregation, it must be done in a separate assembly, or at least after what is considered the closing prayer of the worship assembly. It is permitted for the chorus to sing, read Scripture, and end with a closing prayer, but this shall not be considered as a time of worship, nor shall any individual in the audience allow their thoughts or feelings to be intended as a worship unto God.
It is merely a performance for entertainment value; the fact that songs, hymns, and spiritual songs are being sung is inconsequential. If a woman should be used to lead the group, she is not permitted to speak until after the close of this non-worship service.

20 There shall be no clapping, raising of hands, or any other gesture or indecent or disorderly action during the worship service. However, a congregation is allowed to suspend this rule during special child-oriented services such as Vacation Bible Schools or Youth Rallies.

21 During the worship assembly, men are allowed (but not required) to say aloud “amen” or some other similar word or phrase as long as such is done decently and in order. Expressions such as “Praise the Lord” would technically be permitted, but are not recommended.

22 A collection of money is to be taken every first day of the week. Each Christian is to give as he purposes in his heart, keeping in mind the amount generally required under the Old Law. The money collected shall be put into a church treasury and referred to as “the Lord’s money”, but it can be used for a variety of purposes such as church buildings, utility bills, employee salaries, landscaping, etc. (all at the discretion of the elders). Funds cannot be obtained and deposited into the church treasury by any other means than by free will offerings. Fundraisers of any kind are forbidden.

23 The elders of a congregation may choose to have more than one regular assembly during each week. If so, attendance by all members at all of these assemblies is required unless they are prevented from doing so due to illness, work, or some other good reason. Those who no longer attend any assembly on a regular basis shall be deemed as being unfaithful and shall eventually be disfellowshipped (this shall typically be comprised of declaring such in a worship assembly and in a letter sent to the person being disfellowshipped).

24 Women are allowed to teach other women or children. They may not teach male children who have been baptized. Women may speak aloud in any Bible class (while still recognizing the authority of the man), but not during the formal worship service (other than during the announcement period).

25 The business of each congregation shall be conducted by one of two methods: 1) a plurality of elders and deacons; or, 2) a men’s business meeting. The first is the preferred option, but it is not required if the congregation cannot find at least two men willing or able to fulfill the responsibility. Elders and deacons must fit the qualifications listed by Paul, the main difference being that elders have to have children who have been baptized, while deacons just have to have children. Those men who are needed to serve as deacons but do not technically fit the qualifications can still be used as long as their title is changed (“ministry leader”, etc.). Women may serve in an appropriate way but are not to be called deaconesses.

26 There shall be no organization of the church beyond that of the local congregation. However, conformity of beliefs can be maintained through brotherhood lectureships, publications, universities, etc.

27 Elders have authority only over the local congregation. However, there are some exceptions to this rule. An eldership can take upon itself (with approval by the other party or parties) the oversight of such things as congregations with few members considered to be in a mission area, church workers in mission areas, or other similar works deemed to be in need of the oversight of an eldership.

28 A plurality of congregations may combine money from their respective treasuries for the purpose of evangelistic efforts in another location. At no time, however, can this effort be conducted or organized in such a way as to be construed as a “missionary society”.

29 Divorced persons are to be a welcome part of the congregation. However, those divorced persons who wish to marry again, or those who have already been divorced and married again, must be investigated by the church (or its designee) in order to determine if their marriage (or pending marriage) has been preceded by a “Scriptural divorce” (that being one where the other person committed adultery either before or after the divorce). Those deemed to be in “unscriptural marriages” are expected to get a divorce in order to remain in good standing with God and the church.

30 All major doctrinal issues must be understood and taught without error. This includes (but not necessarily limited to): that we are not predestined to salvation, that it is possible for a Christian to lose his/her salvation, that speaking in tongues and other such miraculous gifts came to an end at the completion of the writing of the NT, that there will be no Rapture nor 1000 year reign of Christ, and that Heaven and Hell are literal. However, this requirement of perfect understanding shall not apply to the issue of the indwelling and operation of the Holy Spirit.

31 The preaching of these rules and correct doctrinal positions shall be deemed and denoted as “preaching the truth

32 These rules shall be observed without variation of any kind. Anyone who fails to know and follow these rules perfectly is deemed to be lost eternally unless he/she repents. The grace of God shall not be thought to be extended for any misunderstanding or noncompliance. However, moral imperfection (sin) shall be excused (covered by grace) provided the person regularly prays and asks for forgiveness.

33 Any group who fails to abide by these rules in their entirety is to be called a denomination. Anyone who attends a denomination is committing the sin of denominationalism.

In addition, the following are yet more rules that are not as frequently debated:

1. observing Christmas or other holidays
2. fruit of the vine must be fermented/not fermented
3. one cup vs. multiple cups
4. no kitchen or eating in the building
5. cannot give to non-Christians, orphan homes, etc.
6. non-baptized not allowed to read Scripture
7. no separated classes
8. Bible versions
9. taking of oaths
10. serving in the military
11. inflicting capital punishment
12. using force to defend oneself or others
13. serving as a government official
14. lifting hands while singing
15. joining a ministerial alliance
16. how God answers prayer
17. fasting
18. who selects and appoints elders
19. singing as the emblems are passed
20. use of church buildings for secular activities
21. building of fellowship halls, gymnasiums, etc.
22. use of an instrument in "church" weddings
23. youth directors, youth rallies, youth camps
24. the six days of creation being literal days
25. the operation of Christian hospitals
26. ministers of education, ministers of music, etc.
27. the baptismal "formula"
28. formal confession before baptism
29. dedicating babies
30. signing contribution pledge cards
31. women wearing shorts and slacks
32. women working outside the home
33. Children's Bible Hour
34. bussing children to services
35. degrees of reward and punishment
36. dress code for men serving the Lord's Supper

Do all COCers believe this way?

 

[RAdam]

Pastor Larry,

You should be aware that the 'Pretribulation Rapture' doctrine were not yet introduce to Churches till middle of 19th Century. Prior that, for many centuries, Christians always believed that Christ shall come again only one more time, not twice. So, it was obivously, pretribulationism doctrine were not yet introduce to them for long time. Were they are wrong that they believed that Christ shall come again only one more time? If so, why would you think that they were wrong on their belief? Please explain this to us.

By the way, throughout whole New Testament, there is nowhere verse or passage saying that Christ will come again twice or two times in the future, but rather, throughout N.T. books telling us that Christ shall again only one more time according Hebrews 9:28-"and unto them that look for him shall be appear the SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation."

Clearly this telling us that Christ shall come again only one more time.

At his first coming was, to bring salvation to the world by Calvary and his resurrection. Then, at his second coming, shall bring to judgment the world. Bible teaches it very clear. His coming is obivously posttribulational.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Thank you. No Christians believed in pre-trib rapture until about 200 or so years ago. I'm not saying the majority or minority, I'm saying none. If the church (and we can argue over what that entails, but we must agree that it means at least some Christians) is the pillar and ground of the truth, how does one explain that no Christians had the second coming of Christ correct if pre-trib be true? If something has never been believed amongst primitive Christians, it probably needs to be thrown out. Here are people that knew the apostles, heard them preach, learned from them, and learned from those that learned from them. There is no evidence that I've seen that any of them held to pre-trib rapture.

Again, it's built upon well-wishes and a lot of faulty, context violating interpretations of scripture. For instance, to separate the appearing of Christ from the coming of Christ is to wrest the scriptures in such a way that it makes me saddened.

 

[Pastor Larry]

No Christians believed in pre-trib rapture until about 200 or so years ago. I'm not saying the majority or minority, I'm saying none.

I can't imagine the depth of knowledge you must have to know what every single Christian believed for more than 1800 years. Can you tell how you can by such knowledge?

There is no evidence that I've seen that any of them held to pre-trib rapture.

Here, already you have backtracked on your previous statement. Now you are (more wisely) limited your statement to evidence that you have seen. But have you seen enough?

Again, it's built upon well-wishes and a lot of faulty, context violating interpretations of scripture.

Over the years I have seen many people try to show this, but so far, it has always been less than convincing to me because it often violates the context of Scripture.

For instance, to separate the appearing of Christ from the coming of Christ is to wrest the scriptures in such a way that it makes me saddened.

How's that a "for instance"? And what do you mean by appearing of Christ as opposed to his coming? He already came, and said he would come back. Yet no one, for hundreds of years believed he would come twice. Were they wrong?