Devotion to Mary 2

[Jkdbuck76]

This is where I come in. I've heard the term "mother of God" used quite a bit.

I must also say that NOBODY has ever said that Mary is the mother of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

Who is Jesus? Answer: God.

I have no problem with the term "mother of God" if it is being used to defend the deity of Christ.

Check this out. It does talk about some of the translation difficulties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos

Again, I've never run into a Roman Catholic that says Mary is the Mother of the Trinity.

But there is a lot we can learn from Mary: A messenger came, she believed, and God was in her.

 

[Zenas]

This is where I come in. I've heard the term "mother of God" used quite a bit.

I must also say that NOBODY has ever said that Mary is the mother of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

Who is Jesus? Answer: God.

I have no problem with the term "mother of God" if it is being used to defend the deity of Christ.

Check this out. It does talk about some of the translation difficulties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos

Again, I've never run into a Roman Catholic that says Mary is the Mother of the Trinity.

But there is a lot we can learn from Mary: A messenger came, she believed, and God was in her.

What is there about the "Mother of God" concept that brings out such profound hostility, especially among fundamentalists?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What is there about the "Mother of God" concept that brings out such profound hostility, especially among fundamentalists?

Not just fundalmentalist. Annsi has given the responce of the reason. Mistakenly, using the modern connotation of the world it is misinterpreted as being the Mother of God before God. So then they believe people are saying that Mary is greater than God. When this is just confused translation and understanding of what they are talking about. I equate that with saying the Trinity = polytheism. Theotokos (mother of God) is about the divinity of Jesus. The term came out because people were discussing the nature of Christ. Man possesd by the spirit? Some how two beings merged into one? Or was it that Christ was the Word from the begining and in the incarnation Mary gave birth to that very one? Jesus "not having considered it something to be grasped" lowered himself to become man and took his humanity from Mary. Thus she gave birth to God in Bethleham. Not some lesser deity or some amalgamation. Rightly then she is Theotokos. That is how it has always been meant. Not some recreation of the Titans who birthed the modern gods.

 

[annsni]

I agree with the original meaning of the mother of God, but it has been used since then to raise Mary to a place of worship that she is not due. Yes, she gave birth to the Messiah - the Savior. But that doesn't make her worthy of prayer, bowing down to statues of her, calling her "holy", or thinking that she has a better place next to Christ than any of the rest of the believers who have ever existed. So the term "mother of God" has been abused, IMO.

 

[Matt Black]

I think it would be helpful, picking up where Annsni and I left off in the last thread, if we define what we mean by 'mother'. For me and for the purpose of Mary's 'title', 'mother' (of God) simply means she was pregnant with, gave birth to and raised God (the Son, not any other member of the Trinity); it doesn't mean that she any way preceded Him in time or is superior or equal to him.

 

[Carico]

This is where I come in. I've heard the term "mother of God" used quite a bit.

I must also say that NOBODY has ever said that Mary is the mother of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

Who is Jesus? Answer: God.

I have no problem with the term "mother of God" if it is being used to defend the deity of Christ.

Check this out. It does talk about some of the translation difficulties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos

Again, I've never run into a Roman Catholic that says Mary is the Mother of the Trinity.

But there is a lot we can learn from Mary: A messenger came, she believed, and God was in her.

Actually Jesus never once called his mother "mother." He called her "woman" because she was from earth and Jesus was from heaven.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I agree with the original meaning of the mother of God, but it has been used since then to raise Mary to a place of worship that she is not due. Yes, she gave birth to the Messiah - the Savior. But that doesn't make her worthy of prayer, bowing down to statues of her, calling her "holy", or thinking that she has a better place next to Christ than any of the rest of the believers who have ever existed. So the term "mother of God" has been abused, IMO.

The two consepts aren't joined. They are separate. One being whether she is Theotokos ensuring Jesus is considered Divine. The other has to do with veneration. The two consepts are not linked. Marian Veneration is ancient. And it was in existance before the debate of Theotokos. As far as debating whether venration of Mary originated in the practices of Hera worship or not is more productive than throwing the consept of Theotokos into the mix. That alots for confusion. First of all I think Veneration must be defined. Catholics, Orthodox and Copst define it as apart and distinct from God Worship. There is some validity to this. We venerate all sorts of things not God. There are definition forms of this which unfortunately only fall into one word like worship. As Christains we only relate the word "worship" when it occasions at church or in our prayer life. However, the word has many connotations not specific to what we do in church or to God. Like the word love can relate to how we feel about our spouses or God yet we don't confuse the two. Worship and Venerate also fall under the same foiable as the word love. Next if not veneration of Mary like God then is there something about her which to venerate? Unlike those who've gone before was she obedient? Has the Scripture pointed out her faults as it does other great men of God? Why or why not? What if Mary had said no? These things are all considered when thinking of Mary.

 

[Matt Black]

There's also the (rather tongue-in-cheek-but-with-a-serious-edge-to-it) point that it's a bit cheeky to say we love Jesus but say we don't give a fig about His Mom...

 

[Revmitchell]

Devote yourself to Christ and leave Mary in the background where she belongs.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

There's also the (rather tongue-in-cheek-but-with-a-serious-edge-to-it) point that it's a bit cheeky to say we love Jesus but say we don't give a fig about His Mom...

That is human reasoning. The papists are in grave error with their adoration of Mary. And Christ's teaching applies today as much as it did in His day to those who wanted to reverence Mary:

Luke 11

27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Devote yourself to Christ and leave Mary in the background where she belongs.

That's exactly what Jesus said at the wedding in Cana! "Woman! Leave me alone!!! Get back in the Kitchen (without shoes) and bake me a pie!" Its funny But note the Gospel of John's recolection of the event

1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine."
4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come."

5His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

John limits the number of Miracles to 7. The gospels agree that this is the first primary miracle. Turning the Water to Wine shows the Messianic Age has come but he does so at the bidding of his mother. My time has not come, he says. Why? Was it because it wasn't time to reveal himself for the coming crucifixion? Or was it that it wasn't time to start his public ministry? Yet he listens to his mother and both reveals himself and begins a public ministry. What does that say?

 

[Revmitchell]

Yet he listens to his mother and both reveals himself and begins a public ministry. What does that say?

Nothing...................

 

[annsni]

There's also the (rather tongue-in-cheek-but-with-a-serious-edge-to-it) point that it's a bit cheeky to say we love Jesus but say we don't give a fig about His Mom...

His mom didn't save me, did she? She didn't create me, did she? Yes, she was blessed to have been chosen to give birth to the Savior but there are others in Scripture who were also blessed, yet they are not objects of worship.

 

[annsni]

The two consepts aren't joined. They are separate. One being whether she is Theotokos ensuring Jesus is considered Divine. The other has to do with veneration. The two consepts are not linked. Marian Veneration is ancient. And it was in existance before the debate of Theotokos.

I was brought up Catholic and went to Catholic school. Theotokos is the reason given for worship of Mary.

As far as debating whether venration of Mary originated in the practices of Hera worship or not is more productive than throwing the consept of Theotokos into the mix. That alots for confusion. First of all I think Veneration must be defined. Catholics, Orthodox and Copst define it as apart and distinct from God Worship. There is some validity to this. We venerate all sorts of things not God. There are definition forms of this which unfortunately only fall into one word like worship. As Christains we only relate the word "worship" when it occasions at church or in our prayer life. However, the word has many connotations not specific to what we do in church or to God. Like the word love can relate to how we feel about our spouses or God yet we don't confuse the two. Worship and Venerate also fall under the same foiable as the word love. Next if not veneration of Mary like God then is there something about her which to venerate? Unlike those who've gone before was she obedient? Has the Scripture pointed out her faults as it does other great men of God? Why or why not? What if Mary had said no? These things are all considered when thinking of Mary.

Mary was obedient yet there were many others who were too. Mary is given actually very little Bible time compared to others - even Ruth and Esther have more verses given about them. We know more about Abraham and Sarah, Moses, Elijah, Samuel and David than we know of Mary.

 

[Matt Black]

No, she didn't save or create you or me. But she is "blessed amongst women" and, like I said, I'd be pretty brassed off if people wanted to know me but didn't like or ignored my mother.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I was brought up Catholic and went to Catholic school. Theotokos is the reason given for worship of Mary.



Mary was obedient yet there were many others who were too. Mary is given actually very little Bible time compared to others - even Ruth and Esther have more verses given about them. We know more about Abraham and Sarah, Moses, Elijah, Samuel and David than we know of Mary.

If its true what you say. That your Catholic School teachers taught you that you're supposed to worship Mary like God because she is greater than God and gave birth to the Godhead. Then those teachers are heretics!!!!! I was also raised Catholic and my family (father and mother, brothers and sisters) is still Catholic and they will refuse to recognize it. In fact they would suggest reporting that to the bishop. Note every other person you mentioned also did not obey Out of hand but needed encouraging. Not Mary She just accepted it no further discussion. Stange this difference. No one else in the bible like it.

 

[annsni]

No, she didn't save or create you or me. But she is "blessed amongst women" and, like I said, I'd be pretty brassed off if people wanted to know me but didn't like or ignored my mother.

I like His mom and certainly don't ignore her. But I know her proper place in history, theology and the church. I honestly can't wait to meet her in heaven along with many of the other Biblical people. But she holds no special place over any other human being who has passed away.

 

[Matt Black]

OK. Are we able to agree on the 'mother of God' definition as qualified by my post on the first page?

 

[Jim1999]

Mary is to be adored as the mother of the human Jesus, but never in any form as the mother of God. Either the Christ was God in eternity or He was not God at all. How could He have been born of an earthly woman?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Zenas]

Mary is to be adored as the mother of the human Jesus, but never in any form as the mother of God. Either the Christ was God in eternity or He was not God at all. How could He have been born of an earthly woman?

Cheers,

Jim

He didn't just appear on earth one day full grown. He could have, but God chose to send Him into the world via a woman through the natural birthing process. That makes Him the son of Mary and Mary the mother of God.