Did a Calvinist say this?

[SheepWhisperer]

It is clear you do not have a good grasp of Calvinism because your statements agree with all the points of Calvinism. Why is this so? Because the doctrines of grace are biblical. Thank you for agreeing to scripture as Calvinists agree.

Why then such hostility to Calvinism when you clearly affirm its biblical teaching?

Really? This one does?
"Neither is His atonement "limited".

What about this one?
"God chose to freely give us the choice to accept Him or reject him"

I will try to explain my view on it more clearly.......
1Total Depravity....... I reject the belief that a person is totally "inable" to respond to the Gospel unless God somehow "enables" him or "regenerates" him BEFORE he can believe. On the contrary "Regeneration" happens WHEN a person is saved and the Holy Spirit indwells him.
2. Unconditional Election........ I reject the belief that God only chooses certain ones to be saved from the beginning of time.
3. I reject the belief that God's/ Christ's atonement is "limited" in any way such as that it is "limited" to "the elect".
4. I reject the belief that God's Grace is "irresistible". Men can and do resist. The Bible says that Felix did.
5. And I reject the teaching that all the saints will "persevere", because some do not. However, I DO believe that once a person is saved, they are saved forever.

 

[JonC]

Really? This one does?
"Neither is His atonement "limited".

What about this one?
"God chose to freely give us the choice to accept Him or reject him"

I will try to explain my view on it more clearly.......
1Total Depravity....... I reject the belief that a person is totally "inable" to respond to the Gospel unless God somehow "enables" him or "regenerates" him BEFORE he can believe. On the contrary "Regeneration" happens WHEN a person is saved and the Holy Spirit indwells him.
2. Unconditional Election........ I reject the belief that God only chooses certain ones to be saved from the beginning of time.
3. I reject the belief that God's/ Christ's atonement is "limited" in any way such as that it is "limited" to "the elect".
4. I reject the belief that God's Grace is "irresistible". Men can and do resist. The Bible says that Felix did.
5. And I reject the teaching that all the saints will "persevere", because some do not. However, I DO believe that once a person is saved, they are saved forever.

For clarification:

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit works in the lives of the lost towards salvation or does men, alienated from God and apart from the work of the Spirit, come to God for salvation?

Do you believe that God sent His Son that whosoever believes will be saved or that all (regardless of belief) will be saved?

Your understanding of "irresistible grace"is not correct. Calvinists don't believe men don't resist. They believe God prevails.

 

[Reformed]

Sir, I never said that it was. But I still stand by what I posted.

If that is the case I have no idea what your purpose was in quoting part of Romans 1.

 

[Reynolds]

That is a very good question.

We know that the Gospel is not proclaimed to all people, everywhere. There are tribal people who live and die without ever hearing the Gospel. That is problematic for those that believe God is universally fair. Some have gone so far to say that God will save those people based on how they live according to the light they have. If that is true then God is made a liar because the preaching of the Gospel is made obsolete. So, we cannot use the fairness argument when talking about salvation.

I believe the preponderance of scripture teaches that the gospel is freely proclaimed, but not everyone is able to respond in a positive manner towards it. No one is able to believe unless God makes them able to believe (c.f. Eph. 2:1; 5). This is a hard truth for a Synergist to accept.


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That is a good and helpful answer.
I have never believed God is fair. He is just. Fairness is a concept of men and God does not fit in our box. We are never to judge Him by our standards.
Does everyone that Gods makes able to believe come to salvation? Is His calling irresistable?
I guess what I am getting at is, does man have a choice at any point in time in the salvation process?

 

[JonC]

That is a good and helpful answer.
I have never believed God is fair. He is just. Fairness is a concept of men and God does not fit in our box. We are never to judge Him by our standards.
Does everyone that Gods makes able to believe come to salvation? Is His calling irresistable?
I guess what I am getting at is, does man have a choice at any point in time in the salvation process?

Man has a choice from beginning to end (both the saved and unsaved).

 

[MennoSota]

Really? This one does?
"Neither is His atonement "limited".

What about this one?
"God chose to freely give us the choice to accept Him or reject him"

I will try to explain my view on it more clearly.......

1Total Depravity....... I reject the belief that a person is totally "inable" to respond to the Gospel unless God somehow "enables" him or "regenerates" him BEFORE he can believe. On the contrary "Regeneration" happens WHEN a person is saved and the Holy Spirit indwells him.

You do not understand what Total depravity is stating.
Total depravity means that humans are not capable of having righteousness apart from Christ Jesus. We are altogether filthy in our sins.

Do you deny that there is no means of being right with God except through God's pardon?

2. Unconditional Election........ I reject the belief that God only chooses certain ones to be saved from the beginning of time.

Do you reject the scriptures that tell us God elects and predestines? (Romans 8 and Ephesians 1)

3. I reject the belief that God's/ Christ's atonement is "limited" in any way such as that it is "limited" to "the elect".

Then you accept universalism, that all will be saved including demons?

4. I reject the belief that God's Grace is "irresistible". Men can and do resist. The Bible says that Felix did.

Of course humans fight against God's call, but Jesus tells us that all whom the Father gives him will be saved.
Those destined to damnation will resist to their damnation. Those destined to be redeemed will resist until God makes them alive in Christ Jesus.

5. And I reject the teaching that all the saints will "persevere", because some do not. However, I DO believe that once a person is saved, they are saved forever.

You contradict yourself. On the one hand you state that the saints who are saved are saved forever. Then you say that the saints that are saved will not persevere and thus will no longer be saved.

SheepWhisperer, (edited misspelling) you are confused in your own mind. May I suggest prayerfully studying God's word and putting down your ignorant prejudices?

 

[Reformed]

Does everyone that Gods makes able to believe come to salvation? Is His calling irresistible?

No one can resist what is termed "the effectual call" of God. Let me explain...

We know from scripture that man is spiritually dead (1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1). In fact, the Greek word for dead in Eph. 2:1 (nekros) is the same word used for a corpse. A person that is dead is incapable of anything. Since Paul uses the term to describe the spiritual condition of an unbeliever, we can posit that the unbeliever is incapable of anything resembling spiritual life. It takes a unilateral act of God to change that condition. We see that unilateral work of God in Eph. 1:5. While we were still dead in our trespasses and sin "but God". God made us alive while we were spiritually unresponsive. Everything up to this point is the work of God, not the work of man. By the time we get to Romans 10:9-10, the unbeliever has been regenerated. Now we see the believer confessing...freely confessing.

I guess what I am getting at is, does man have a choice at any point in time in the salvation process?

Man does have a choice, but it is a choice with a will that has been newly freed from the bondage of sin. Martin Luther touched on this in his book Bondage of the Will. This analogy will not do the discussion justice, but imagine you were marooned on a deserted island with hardly enough food to keep you alive. You are eventually rescued, but you are emaciated physically. Your cheeks are sunken in, and you ribs easily show through your body. To celebrate your rescue you are served a bountiful meal. Every delicacy you can imagine is put before you. Could you resist partaking of that feast? I seriously doubt it. Multiply that by tens of thousands and we may have a slight understanding of what it would be like for a person to be illumined to the truth (by the Holy Spirit), who understands their pitiful condition, and still rejects the Gospel. To quote the Princess Bride, "Inconceivable!" Once the will of the individual has been set free, there is no greater desire of the will than to accept the free gift of eternal life.

So, does man choose after being illuminated? Yes. Does he choose freely? Yes. Can he choose to reject Christ? No. He cannot reject because the true need of his liberated will has been filled.

 

[MennoSota]

You do not understand what Total depravity is stating.
Total depravity means that humans are not capable of having righteousness apart from Christ Jesus. We are altogether filthy in our sins.

Do you deny that there is no means of being right with God except through God's pardon?


Do you reject the scriptures that tell us God elects and predestines? (Romans 8 and Ephesians 1)

Then you accept universalism, that all will be saved including demons?


Of course humans fight against God's call, but Jesus tells us that all whom the Father gives him will be saved.
Those destined to damnation will resist to their damnation. Those destined to be redeemed will resist until God makes them alive in Christ Jesus.

You contradict yourself. On the one hand you state that the saints who are saved are saved forever. Then you say that the saints that are saved will not persevere and thus will no longer be saved.

SheepWhisperer, (edited misspelling) you are confused in your own mind. May I suggest prayerfully studying God's word and putting down your ignorant prejudices?

No mis-spelling. There are sheep and there are goats.

 

[TCassidy]

It is clear you do not have a good grasp of Calvinism because your statements agree with all the points of Calvinism.

What statements? He didn't answer any of my 5 points.

 

[TCassidy]

1Total Depravity....... I reject the belief that a person is totally "inable" to respond to the Gospel unless God somehow "enables" him or "regenerates" him BEFORE he can believe. On the contrary "Regeneration" happens WHEN a person is saved and the Holy Spirit indwells him.

1. Total depravity. What part of man, his body, soul, or spirit, do you believe escaped the effects of the fall and remained holy and pure enabling the person to come to Christ on his own merits rather than on the sacrifice of Christ?

2. Unconditional Election........ I reject the belief that God only chooses certain ones to be saved from the beginning of time.

2. Unconditional election. What condition of perfection do you think a person can achieve that gives him the right to come to God apart from the sacrifice of Christ?

3. I reject the belief that God's/ Christ's atonement is "limited" in any way such as that it is "limited" to "the elect".

3. Limited atonement. If the atonement is not limited to believers only, do you accept universalism and believe everyone, even the devil and his demons, will ultimately be saved?

4. I reject the belief that God's Grace is "irresistible". Men can and do resist. The Bible says that Felix did.

4. Irresistible Grace. (Terrible word choice that only causes confusion.) Better called "Efficacious Grace." What part of God's grace do you think is so weak and defective that it will fail to achieve what God intended it to achieve?

5. And I reject the teaching that all the saints will "persevere", because some do not. However, I DO believe that once a person is saved, they are saved forever.

5. Perseverance of the saints. (Better called "preservation of the saints.") A person is saved by grace, and kept by grace. So, what, in your opinion, will result of the genuinely saved person losing his salvation?

 

[SovereignGrace]

"Calvinism" says that Man is so depraved that he cannot respond to the Gospel, that God determined who would be saved from the beginning of time, that God's atonement is "limited" and that a person cannot "resist" God's Grace. "
"Arminianism", as little as I know of it, teaches that a saved person can later become lost. I reject all of the "Tulip" "points" and the Arminian one (the one I know about)

Those who are lost do respond to the gospel...generally it's no thanks.

 

[JonC]

Not to change the topic, but did an Arminian say this:

"In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, ‘Without me ye can do nothing.’ St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: ‘Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing!"

“Predestination, therefore, as it regards the thing itself, is the decree of the good pleasure of God in Christ, by which he resolved within himself from all eternity, to justify, adopt and endow with everlasting life, to the praise of his own glorious grace, believers on whom he had decreed to bestow faith.”

“With respect to the article of predestination, my sentiments upon it are the following: It is an eternal and gracious decree of God in Christ, by which he determines to justify and adopt believers, and to endow them with eternal life, but to condemn unbelievers, and impenitent persons.”

 

[SheepWhisperer]

You do not understand what Total depravity is stating.
Total depravity means that humans are not capable of having righteousness apart from Christ Jesus. We are altogether filthy in our sins. If that were the totality of what it means, then I would agree with it . But methinks there is more you believe about it than this.

Do you deny that there is no means of being right with God except through God's pardon? There is no way to be right with God except by believing on Jesus Christ


Do you reject the scriptures that tell us God elects and predestines? (Romans 8 and Ephesians 1) No, I do not. I reject the Calvinist interpretation of them.

Then you accept universalism, that all will be saved including demons?
No, I do not and I have already said so.


Of course humans fight against God's call, but Jesus tells us that all whom the Father gives him will be saved.
Those destined to damnation will resist to their damnation. Those destined to be redeemed will resist until God makes them alive in Christ Jesus. Those who get saved stop resisting on their own and surrender to Christ.

You contradict yourself. On the one hand you state that the saints who are saved are saved forever. Then you say that the saints that are saved will not persevere and thus will no longer be saved. Sir, I did not say this

SheepWhisperer, (edited misspelling) you are confused in your own mind. May I suggest prayerfully studying God's word and putting down your ignorant prejudices?
.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

For clarification:

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit works in the lives of the lost towards salvation or does men, alienated from God and apart from the work of the Spirit, come to God for salvation? The Holy Spirit works in the lives of the lost and draws men to God via "convincing the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement to come."

Do you believe that God sent His Son that whosoever believes will be saved or that all (regardless of belief) will be saved? Whosever believes.

Your understanding of "irresistible grace"is not correct. Calvinists don't believe men don't resist. They believe God prevails. Ok, fair enough. I do not believe that God "prevails" over any man's "resistance". God's grace is NOT "irresistible" I will give you an example from the Bible............

[

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Acts 24
24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. 25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee. 26He hoped also that money should have been given him of Paul, that he might loose him: wherefore he sent for him the oftener, and communed with him. 27But after two years Porcius Festus came into Felix' room: and Felix, willing to shew the Jews a pleasure, left Paul bound.

Let me expound on that for those who may not understand. Felix heard Paul "concerning faith in Christ" and in the process, the "Comforter" AKA the Holy Spirit, dealt with his heart about "sin*, righteousness and judgement".(*sin here referred to by "temperance") In other words Paul gave Felix the Gospel which went something like this: "Felix, you're a wicked sinner, Jesus is your only hope, and you are on your way to Hell". Opon hearing Paul's words, Felix' reaction was to "tremble". He was under conviction but said "go thy way........" He put it off. God's grace is not "irresistible".

 

[MennoSota]

Sheepy, you are entirely twisted up on your own contradiction. I suggest you look at the scripture and see how it fits with the structure around which Calvin shared his belief. If you do so, you will see that you are in much more agreement than you are in disagreement.
You seem to be bitter from perhaps a bad experience you had with a person who labeled as a Calvinist. Let such prejudice go and simply look at how Calvin observed the word of God. You are in agreement on many, many things.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

I'm neither confused about this nor have I contradicted myself.

 

[MennoSota]

Acts 24
24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. 25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee. 26He hoped also that money should have been given him of Paul, that he might loose him: wherefore he sent for him the oftener, and communed with him. 27But after two years Porcius Festus came into Felix' room: and Felix, willing to shew the Jews a pleasure, left Paul bound.

Let me expound on that for those who may not understand. Felix heard Paul "concerning faith in Christ" and in the process, the "Comforter" AKA the Holy Spirit, dealt with his heart about "sin*, righteousness and judgement".(*sin here referred to by "temperance") In other words Paul gave Felix the Gospel which went something like this: "Felix, you're a wicked sinner, Jesus is your only hope, and you are on your way to Hell". Opon hearing Paul's words, Felix' reaction was to "tremble". He was under conviction but said "go thy way........" He put it off. God's grace is not "irresistible".

What is the will of God?

"And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
~ John 6:39--40

Did Felix look to Jesus for salvation or did he just shudder because he knew he was condemned?

Jesus does not lose even one that the Father has chosen. Not one.

What then does this say about Felix?

All it says is that Felix feared the condemnation to come. It does not say that he resisted God's call to salvation. You are adding to the text that which is not there.

 

[JonC]

[

I agree with most of your reply (and will add that most Calvinists would as well), the exception being your statement that with grace man prevails over God,. And yes, an example of this would be appreciated.

 

[JonC]

. It does not say that he resisted God's call to salvation. You are adding to the text that which is not there.

I resisted God's call to salvation for years (and know others who did as well....some of us were just as thick headed lost as we are saved ).

His error is not in accepting the resistance of men but of denying the prevailing power of God to accomplish His will.