convicted1
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This reeks of a SBM post and if so, that's a major 'no no' to have multiple accounts on here...
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Did Christ Atone for ALL humans?
- Thread starter Robert William
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This reeks of a SBM post and if so, that's a major 'no no' to have multiple accounts on here...
Brother Willis, you are losing it. Your seeing a boogie man behind every tree. Btw, did you get feedback yet on rebel and me? I'm looking forward to your public appology.
Calvinism is demonstrated, not through scripture, but through declarative statements with the twisting of Scripture, taking it out of context, and redefining of key words. You just demonstrated that in this post. We both agree in depravity but Total Inability is error. That is why you cannot reconcile this chapter or do a proper exposition of the chapter.
Let's consider the overall context and see what the Lord is saying.
In chapter one Paul addresses the wickedness of the Gentile world in general. He points out their idolatry and the consequences and all the evil that results from it.
However, in chapter two he begins with what one may call an imaginary conversation with a Jew. For example:
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
and:
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Paul continues this conversational style of writing into chapter three. In chapter two he condemns the sinfulness of the Jews, and then in chapter three he addresses both Jews and Gentiles together, thus 3:23,
"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
But as you can see at the beginning of the chapter:
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
--the conversation is continued.
We come to verse 9 and he asks this question to his imaginary Jew:
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
--There is the question. What is the answer?
Not only is the answer given in the second half of this verse, but he continues it in the next few verses.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
--This is a description of mankind. Man's heart is evil. It is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. This is a general description of mankind.
It gets even more descriptive as he begins to quote from the book of Isaiah:
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Look around you, especially at the unsaved world:
Their throat is an open sepulchre (a metaphor--sepulchers stink).
With their tongues they have used deceit--Romans 3:4: all men are liars.
The poison of asps is under the lips--the cruelty of words, and what comes from the mouth.
--This is general statement of mankind. It is what we observe in general, but not what we can say about every single person.
Likewise as we go down each statement. About 1,000 were killed in Yemen by two suicide bombers. Wars are frequent. Men are violent. Men are swift to shed blood. It is common of mankind--but not common to every single man.
However, one by one man is convinced by this description that everyone is guilty of sin. We all have broken the law in some way or another. That is the point. We are guilty before God as law-breakers. Every person is.
Therefore:
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Under the law all the world is guilty before God.
I hope you really understand the import of this statement.
The world here does not refer to just the electas so many Calvinists adamantly affirm that it does in John 3:16. There is no reason in either verse for "the world" to be confined to "the elect." In fact it never does. Only Calvinism necessitates such an interpretation. The world means everyone, just as it says, in both verses.
All the world is found to be guilty before God: ALL, excluding no one.
Therefore:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
--It is not by the law; not by works that one is saved. The law simply points out our sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
--How does righteousness come? How is it attainable?
It is not by the law. It is not by works.
It is by faith in Christ! This is the great and wondrous message of the Bible. Salvation is by faith. Not once here is the doctrine of "unconditional election" mentioned, nor "limited atonement," nor "irresistible grace," but salvation in Christ by faith.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
--How is one justified?
Freely by his grace. It is through the redemption that we have in Christ.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
--What has happened here?
God made Christ to be a propitiation for our sins. We accept that by faith. The sacrifice that was made was made once and for all, for all the world. It is made efficacious through faith in his blood, in his sacrifice. That is how we obtain forgiveness of sins--through faith.
Paul makes some concluding remarks such as:
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
--Notice he still using this conversational style.
But it is faith that justifies a person, not Calvinism.
Good work brother. Another great place to see how the atonement is applied is doing a study on the OT Passover. One will notice how the blood had to be applied by faith. If a household disbelieved and refused to apply the blood, then the Lord would not spare them.
I am, too, but I doubt it will be forthcoming.
By the way, I see you're in PA. I have a good friend from there. I'm a long way from Pennsylvania, though.
Are there Mennonites, Amish, and Quakers where you live?
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I'm smack dab in central Pa. We have lots of Amish and Mennonites, don't know of any Quaker groups.
God bless me, oops, I mean God bless you Rebel!
Calvinism is demonstrated, not through scripture, but through declarative statements with the twisting of Scripture, taking it out of context, and redefining of key words. You just demonstrated that in this post. We both agree in depravity but Total Inability is error. That is why you cannot reconcile this chapter or do a proper exposition of the chapter.
Let's consider the overall context and see what the Lord is saying.
In chapter one Paul addresses the wickedness of the Gentile world in general. He points out their idolatry and the consequences and all the evil that results from it.
However, in chapter two he begins with what one may call an imaginary conversation with a Jew. For example:
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
and:
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Paul continues this conversational style of writing into chapter three. In chapter two he condemns the sinfulness of the Jews, and then in chapter three he addresses both Jews and Gentiles together, thus 3:23,
"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
But as you can see at the beginning of the chapter:
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
--the conversation is continued.
We come to verse 9 and he asks this question to his imaginary Jew:
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
--There is the question. What is the answer?
Not only is the answer given in the second half of this verse, but he continues it in the next few verses.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
--This is a description of mankind. Man's heart is evil. It is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. This is a general description of mankind.
It gets even more descriptive as he begins to quote from the book of Isaiah:
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Look around you, especially at the unsaved world:
Their throat is an open sepulchre (a metaphor--sepulchers stink).
With their tongues they have used deceit--Romans 3:4: all men are liars.
The poison of asps is under the lips--the cruelty of words, and what comes from the mouth.
--This is general statement of mankind. It is what we observe in general, but not what we can say about every single person.
Likewise as we go down each statement. About 1,000 were killed in Yemen by two suicide bombers. Wars are frequent. Men are violent. Men are swift to shed blood. It is common of mankind--but not common to every single man.
However, one by one man is convinced by this description that everyone is guilty of sin. We all have broken the law in some way or another. That is the point. We are guilty before God as law-breakers. Every person is.
Therefore:
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Under the law all the world is guilty before God.
I hope you really understand the import of this statement.
The world here does not refer to just the elect
All the world is found to be guilty before God: ALL, excluding no one.
Therefore:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
--It is not by the law; not by works that one is saved. The law simply points out our sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
--How does righteousness come? How is it attainable?
It is not by the law. It is not by works.
It is by faith in Christ! This is the great and wondrous message of the Bible. Salvation is by faith. Not once here is the doctrine of "unconditional election" mentioned, nor "limited atonement," nor "irresistible grace," but salvation in Christ by faith.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
--How is one justified?
Freely by his grace. It is through the redemption that we have in Christ.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
--What has happened here?
God made Christ to be a propitiation for our sins. We accept that by faith. The sacrifice that was made was made once and for all, for all the world. It is made efficacious through faith in his blood, in his sacrifice. That is how we obtain forgiveness of sins--through faith.
Paul makes some concluding remarks such as:
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
--Notice he still using this conversational style.
But it is faith that justifies a person, not Calvinism.
DHK, you are making faith sound like a self righteous act of man, because you are completely bypassing the depravity of man. Faith is a work and action done by man, saying faith alone and leaving out grace (unmerited favor) makes is a false gospel of salvation by works. The only reason why you are preaching that way is to protect your free will idol. Regeneration by grace has to precede faith.
You have a nice declarative statement taught by Calvinism but not taught in the Bible. Show me through an abundance of Scripture where regeneration precedes faith.
I can show you where faith precedes salvation of which regeneration is a part of. But it is doubtful that you can show me that you can show me where regeneration precedes faith. That is just a false Calvinistic pre-supposition to prop up a false error.
Man is made in God's image and gave man a free will. He is responsible for the choices he makes and the sin he commits. God is not. Man is not the puppet of the Great Puppeteer, and God is not the author of sin, as you would have him to be.
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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
DHK, which one comes first, Grace (unmerited favor) or faith?
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Eph 2:8-9
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The subject of this verse is salvation. The key words are you are saved, around which every other clause centers.
YOU ARE SAVED:
1. By grace--a prepositional phrase defining the verb telling how one is saved.
2. By faith--a prepositional phrase defining the means of how one is saved.
3. Not of yourselves--Salvation is not of yourself. It is all of God.
4. The gift of God ("it is" is not in the original). Salvation is the gift of God.
5. Not of works--Salvation is not of works.
6. It is not of works because if it were man would have something to boast of.
Thus your question is irrelevant and based on a false premise.
You have answered my post by:
1. making an arrogant and personal attack on me.
2. going straight to Calvinistic declarations.
3. avoiding the post altogether and not answering a single scripture in it, though it is you that brought up the scripture in the first place.
Have you anything to say, or just admit that you have been soundly defeated in your Calvinistic outlook.
You still did not answer my question, what comes first in that verse, Grace or faith??
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
What is your impression of the Mennonites there?
I often wish there were Mennonites near here. I would like to get to know them better. They have a long history of promoting peace and religious freedom.
PreachTony
Active Member
Not necessarily, Steaver...I called out the similar terminology and posting style between RW and SBM a while back. I don't necessarily think they are the same person, but I think they hold to very similar views.
Not sure why you think this passage supports Calvinism's regeneration before faith. It states ye are saved through faith, faith being the reason ye are saved. Furthermore salvation is by grace, not of works, not of yourself. Faith is NOT a work!!
Brother Willis did not call us out for using similar terminology and posting style, he believes I created another account under "Rebel" for some odd reason, declared I was a liar. We are awaiting his apology......
PreachTony
Active Member
I can't speak to that. I would not have said you and Rebel are the same person, as my experience with you seems to indicate you guys have differing theological leaning. Again, though, I can't speak for Bro. Willis.
I agree with this!
Like I said, we'll probably wait a long time.
I have a few Mennonite friends and they are good people. As far as doctrines and practices goes, there are different sects holding to different no, no's. Our church actually has quite a few x-Mennonites.
One of our elders was raised Mennonite, he left many years ago, but he always likes to tell the story of going to church with his father one Sunday. His father was a farmer and he just bought a brand shiny new tractor. Well the Pastor had heard and had seen the new tractor and decided to preach on shiny colorful objects that Sunday since he had heard that there was no plans on painting the colorful tractor black. Randy said the pastor didn't get to far into his sermon when his father stood up and shouted "you preach it brother, but you ain't preaching it to me" and he gathered the family together and walked out. Love that story, lol.
Said his father didn't stop going to the church, but he did speak his mind that Sunday and walked out, said he was back in church the next Sunday. Funny thing is Randy is now a Calvinist, lol, one of my best friends. He's humble though, not like some of what you see going on here. He understands it's just a theology, it's not a provable absolute.
If your x Mennonite Calvinist friend sees the Sovereignty of God as an improvable absolute then he is not a Calvinist. He should also see the free will idol as a man made myth, if not, he is a spineless liberal.
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