Featured Did Christ Atone for ALL humans?

Well, I also told Bro. Willis that the hyper-Cal in question could also have the Spaceballs terminology applied to him. He had basically blown past "hyper-Calvinism" and gone right into "Ludicrous Calvinism." :smilewinkgrin:

 

I'm getting kinda tired of you accusing people of idol worship simply because they don't hold to your theology. Would you explain to us just how you got that high horse up into your ivory tower?

As for never meeting a hyper-Cal, then I'm surprised. Hang around this board long enough and you'll see at least one. He believes men are born saved or born damned, he believe the gospel is permanently hidden from the lost, and he believes that those who deny TULIP as the gospel are lost. He's just a barrel of laughs.

As far as I can tell, I'm not rebelling against any scripture. I don't deny that God knows all that will happen. He knows the outcomes of our choices. To say we have no free will is to say that God makes those choices for us. Did God predestine Adam to fall in the Garden?

And yet, God commands ALL MEN everywhere to repent. He laments Jerusalem not turning to Him (a pointless lament if man has no choice but to stray from God). He says that He stands at the door and knocks, and that IF any man OPENS the door, He will enter in. How can man open the door if man has no choice in the matter? He offer invitation to any who thirst to come and drink. Why make that offer if man is spiritually incapable of coming to Him? You say man is incapable of seeking God, yet the scriptures say to seek after Him while He may yet be found. According to your theology, man only has faith once God puts it into them, yet on several occasions we see Jesus marveling at finding faith in someone. Either man has some sort of ability to believe and seek God; or we have a God making some fairly bipolar statements within His own word. I choose to believe the former, seeing as I find that to fall most closely in line with the scriptures. I'm sure you'll just once more accuse me of idol worship.

 

Yes and No,

Matt 12:31, "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men".

Only the sin of unbelief is not atoned for....

 

Wrong question.

1. Did Christ's atoning sacrifice provide the payment for sin owed by all sins, all humans, all of time?
- the answer is "yes".

2. What is the Atonement according to the Bible?
- Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" includes Christ as the Lamb of God (Atoning sacrifice completed at the cross 1 John 2:2 NIV)

and also Christ's work as High Priest -- both are necessary for "Atonement" in the Bible definition of Atonement.

Heb 8:1-5 "the main point is this..." Christ is now in Heaven performing the work of High Priest.

So while the Atoning Sacrifice does provide the suffering and death owed by all of mankind for all sins in all of time.

That payment for our debt of sin must be accepted by the one who interacts with Christ as his High Priest - confessing sins and choosing to follow Christ daily.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Yes, this is true.

Limited Atonement. Not everyone agrees on this point, but we already knew that.

Here we go...

So here you have it, anyone who is not a Sovereign Election believer is an idol-worshiper. Anyone who believes man has the ability to make a choice is an idol-worshiper. Basically, anyone who is not a believer in limited atonement and election is a heretic. That's a pretty sizeable portion of Christianity and the BB in particular that has just been cast into the heretic camp. I hear we're getting jackets next week.

So a person has to be saved before they can hear and understand the gospel, yet the Bible says faith (by which we find salvation) comes by first hearing the preached gospel. Wow, Paul was apparently way off with what he told the Romans.
RW, you and SBM would get along swimmingly, I think...

 

Yes.

What I would suggest is that salvation is not just a matter of sin being atoned for, but extends to receiving Christ. It is just my view that all men and women will be ministered to by the Comforter and will be enlightened as to the truth of sin, righteousness, and judgment. To take that a little further I believe all will believe. The question then goes to...will all embrace Christ, to which the answer is clearly no.

No man will stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgment and say, "But, but...I didn't know!" The fact is that the Comforter was sent to convict sinners, it is their response to that ministry that determines whether the Atonement benefits them.


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


There are several warning of those that turn away from the truth. Understanding comes only through the Comforter, yet rejection of Christ is a possibility for men. I think there are probably a number of us who have turned to Christ who did not do so when first the Lord began to speak to us.

So again I would suggest that just because Christ died for the sins of the world does not mean that this means no-one will end up in Hell. Those who go to the Judgment will go because of determined rejection. Not ignorance, but they themselves determine their fate, spurning the efforts of God that provides the remedy for the separation they exist in.


God bless.

 

And that is why it is impossible to have a conversation with people who believe such.

 

Yerp :BangHead:

 

This is really a lame argument. These are general statements not absolutes.
It is obvious that Cornelius sought God. Only after four days did God send Peter to him with the gospel.

Furthermore if one takes this text in Romans 3, he must not isolate it, he must take the entire text into consideration.

Note how this is a general but vivid description of all mankind:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
--Before you came to Christ, how many people did you murder? How much blood did you shed? What about your children? Your brothers and sisters? "Their feet"--this includes the all up in verses 3-12 does it not?

Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
--How destructive were you before you were saved? Does this include all men? From A.T. Robertson:

--Did you crush houses and property, cars, etc.
A destructive person
From Stong's--From G4937; concussion or utter fracture (properly concretely), that is, complete ruin: - destruction.
--Did you bring things to a complete ruin?

Are all people like this before they are saved? Yes or no?
You need to be consistent in your interpretation of this passage.

 

No, I must study the context. I must look where the verse came from--Psalm 14:1. I must ask why the author was quoting from that verse. I must ask why the one (yourself) is not consistently applying the same hermeneutical principles to the rest of the passage. If he doesn't he looks biased and hypocritical or has a position to defend that otherwise is indefensible. The latter is really the case.

This is a general statement, not an all inclusive statement.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
--No one, absolutely no one seeks after God.

Then,
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
--Everyone, absolutely everyone's feet are swift to shed blood.

Either both statements are general statement describing the general wicked state of mankind, or both are absolute statements stating how no man seeks God and all men are murderers and have and continue to shed blood.

Which is it? How much blood have you shed in your life? I await your answer.

 

Thanks again for applying reason and common sense to the scriptures, which is part of rightly dividing the word of truth. I would wager you will not be getting a reasonable answer to your reply.

 

I am not wading through all of that, at least not here. I can read it on my own time in my own books where it is much easier to read. The point is not the depravity of man. I also believe in the depravity of man. I don't, however, believe in Calvin's theory of the Total Inability of man which the Bible does not teach.
What you haven't done is address the scripture in the context that I have given you. You simply threw at me a commentary detailing the same verses that you quoted in the first place that agrees with you. You are still ignoring the rest of the context. That is what you must contend with. You cannot ignore the context of this passage, no matter what others say.
Matthew Henry was a Presbyterian preacher and naturally his works are highly Calvinistic. You have started with a biased source.

 

His point is, and an accurate point it is, is that you guys want one verse in the passage to be an absolute all inclusive, and another to be just an example in general.

 

Calvinism is demonstrated, not through scripture, but through declarative statements with the twisting of Scripture, taking it out of context, and redefining of key words. You just demonstrated that in this post. We both agree in depravity but Total Inability is error. That is why you cannot reconcile this chapter or do a proper exposition of the chapter.

Let's consider the overall context and see what the Lord is saying.
In chapter one Paul addresses the wickedness of the Gentile world in general. He points out their idolatry and the consequences and all the evil that results from it.
However, in chapter two he begins with what one may call an imaginary conversation with a Jew. For example:
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
and:
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Paul continues this conversational style of writing into chapter three. In chapter two he condemns the sinfulness of the Jews, and then in chapter three he addresses both Jews and Gentiles together, thus 3:23,
"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

But as you can see at the beginning of the chapter:
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
--the conversation is continued.

We come to verse 9 and he asks this question to his imaginary Jew:
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
--There is the question. What is the answer?
Not only is the answer given in the second half of this verse, but he continues it in the next few verses.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
--This is a description of mankind. Man's heart is evil. It is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. This is a general description of mankind.

It gets even more descriptive as he begins to quote from the book of Isaiah:
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Look around you, especially at the unsaved world:
Their throat is an open sepulchre (a metaphor--sepulchers stink).
With their tongues they have used deceit--Romans 3:4: all men are liars.
The poison of asps is under the lips--the cruelty of words, and what comes from the mouth.
--This is general statement of mankind. It is what we observe in general, but not what we can say about every single person.
Likewise as we go down each statement. About 1,000 were killed in Yemen by two suicide bombers. Wars are frequent. Men are violent. Men are swift to shed blood. It is common of mankind--but not common to every single man.
However, one by one man is convinced by this description that everyone is guilty of sin. We all have broken the law in some way or another. That is the point. We are guilty before God as law-breakers. Every person is.

Therefore:
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Under the law all the world is guilty before God.
I hope you really understand the import of this statement.
The world here does not refer to just the elect as so many Calvinists adamantly affirm that it does in John 3:16. There is no reason in either verse for "the world" to be confined to "the elect." In fact it never does. Only Calvinism necessitates such an interpretation. The world means everyone, just as it says, in both verses.

All the world is found to be guilty before God: ALL, excluding no one.

Therefore:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
--It is not by the law; not by works that one is saved. The law simply points out our sin.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
--How does righteousness come? How is it attainable?
It is not by the law. It is not by works.
It is by faith in Christ! This is the great and wondrous message of the Bible. Salvation is by faith. Not once here is the doctrine of "unconditional election" mentioned, nor "limited atonement," nor "irresistible grace," but salvation in Christ by faith.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
--How is one justified?
Freely by his grace. It is through the redemption that we have in Christ.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
--What has happened here?
God made Christ to be a propitiation for our sins. We accept that by faith. The sacrifice that was made was made once and for all, for all the world. It is made efficacious through faith in his blood, in his sacrifice. That is how we obtain forgiveness of sins--through faith.

Paul makes some concluding remarks such as:
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
--Notice he still using this conversational style.
But it is faith that justifies a person, not Calvinism.