You still haven't answered my question, in Eph 2:8-9 what comes first, Grace or faith? If it's faith alone that is a false gospel of salvation by works.
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Did Christ Atone for ALL humans?
- Thread starter Robert William
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You still haven't answered my question, in Eph 2:8-9 what comes first, Grace or faith? If it's faith alone that is a false gospel of salvation by works.
PreachTony
Active Member
So now us free-willers are not only idol-worshipers, but we're now spineless liberals, as well? Boy, this gets better and better.
This sounds just like SBM...no matter how many times you're shown scripture that says faith is NOT a work, you maintain that it is, and believing in "faith alone" is a works-based salvation. Oy!
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Indeed.......
"Are you also without understanding?"
I answered your question in detail.
I gave an exposition of the entire passage.
In conclusion, I answered your question very bluntly:
Thus your question is irrelevant and based on a false premise.
Now you still haven't answered my post directed to you, an exposition of Romans chapter 3.
I don't believe you can. Your last post was a feeble link to Theopedia.
Why should he. It is an irrelevant question.
PreachTony
Active Member
How can you keep saying that "faith alone" is a works based salvation when you yourself quote Ephesians 2:8-9, which explain that, while we are saved by grace through faith, it is absolutely not of works, ergo faith cannot be a work?
Ephesians2:8-9 said:
Faith is believing, it's a work a verb an action done by man. If someone says salvation is by faith alone and leaves out the grace that comes first then they are preaching salvation by works, which is a false gospel.
I thought you were a Calvinist. Whatever happened to sola fide?
Threw it in the garbage heap did you?
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
According to you:
1. Abraham was an ungodly wretch and never justified in the first place. God lied about it.
2. God is all wrong about His own theology; your inventions are right.
3. However, it is God that plainly says: To him that does not work but believes (has faith), on Him that justifies that ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Whose faith? The faith of the one who freely believes and does no work.
The faith of the one whose faith is not a work.
The faith of the one whom Paul says is not a work.
Why do you despise what the Bible says?
Okay, I will just call you confused.
PreachTony
Active Member
You're pushing some fairly Calvinist, and even hyper-Calvinist, doctrines. Hence our confusion...
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Nobody is ever Justified because of a belief, Justification is ONLY because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ alone. Abraham was because of Grace regenerated first, then he by faith believed in God, Abraham was then justified, but the Justification is ONLY because of the Atonement of Christ.
It's ONLY the Atonement that Justifies His children, nothing else.
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Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Here are a couple of good sites:
http://www.fivesolas.com/5solas.htm
http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Sola_fide
I do agree on this point (not the overall position though). Faith is something that should be exercised. The question however is, what is the cause of this exercising of faith? God (and his grace) is the cause of this faith.
Phil. 2:13 — for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Heb. 12:2 — Jesus, the author and finisher of faith
Acts 18:27 — And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brothers wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace
Look at the context:
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Php 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
--It is quite evident that Paul is not talking about salvation here but the Christian walk. We have no dispute here.
However, God does not give faith (the fruit of the Spirit, and a spiritual gift) to the unregenerate. No one on this board has been able to demonstrate that yet.
OUR faith, our salvation, the believer's faith, but not to the unregenerate.
The ESV says:
Act 18:27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed,
--Paul was returning back to Antioch. On the way back he was confirming the believers in the churches which he had already established. These were believers who had already come to Christ in faith. We all come by grace through faith (Eph.2:8,9).
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