Bingo :thumbs:
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Did Christ Atone for ALL humans?
- Thread starter Robert William
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Bingo :thumbs:
Howdy Rebel,
Rebel, I would not say that common grace is close to prevenient grace, common grace is God sending rain on the just and the unjust and allowing the unjust (non predestined elect) to not be in the lake of fire one more day.
Prevenient grace is a man made mythological term that says all humans are taken from their fallen state and put in a neutral state to enable them to exercise their mythological free will choice.
Robert, I would not have used that expression if I were you. See most people (I have observed) have been raised up in some type of religion or another & they naturally carry over their understanding based off of what they have learned.
For example, around me are 3/4 of church goers are Roman Catholic. My mother was an Italian & therefore my religion was RC & I was raised to believe God loves everyone & everyone is given a fair chance to redeem themselves. They even taught that you could be a heinous sinner right up until your death bed but if you repent & say a sincere prayer than you go to heaven. Of course you might need to go to Puratory for a while to burn off your sins but generally you are not going to hell. But that's another story.
Most of the mainline "Protestant" beliefs have some carry over from momma church .....even Calvin continued its practice to a certain degree. And I can see how easy it is to slip back into synergistic beliefs.....after all we all want to have some semblance of control over our life choices so why not build that into our religion as well.
You will note, or maybe you have not been here long enough, that there are some people here who have been on that religious journey for a while & they transform as they go.....most develop more into Sola Gratia, Doctrines of Grace believers with time (of course some do not....but that is by choice). Scripture eventually persuades most to believe in the complete sovereignty stance (which is the minority position---especially today)....but we are all moving along at a pace that God provides. I am 58 YO & 6 years ago I was pretty much a non believer. And I have thankful with the illumination he has provided to me. So I really am cautioning you to be patient....see its really not in your hands or mine, but God's.
And I would say that you are seriously mistaken about both of them, particularly prevenient grace.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
You beat me to it. :thumbsup:
dont just make accusing statements man, prove it out.....explain your position in detail & show the guy where he is wrong.
I care --and so have countless others for centuries. He had biblical wisdom with which we should avail ourselves.
We should care what numerous Christians have taught throughout the Church Age. To ignore them or think we know better is a sure mistake. I am not only referencing John Calvin. Augustine, Wycliffe, Luther, Bucer, Turretine, Owen, Goodwin, Bunyan, Haldane, Spurgeon, Ryle, AWP, BBW,Dr.M-L-J, and so many others from the past -not to mention scores of others from the present.
We should read with discernment, but far be it from us to dismiss God-given giants who can help us in our spiritual development.
As earth, wind & fire says, put your money where your mouth is.
:thumbsup:
Amen, that would be nice, and it would make this thread more beneficial and drive away confusion.
Earth, wind &fire, I am a direct kind of guy like Jesus His disciples and Prophets who made people very very angry, that's why they killed them, that being said, I will try to be more patient. :thumbs:
Believe it or not, some people actually have to work for a living. When I have time, I'll post in greater detail.
Ok Rebel, thanks we will wait a very short period of time.:laugh:
Better be prepared to wait several hours. I teach, and that's enough of an explanation.
:thumbsup: Great,Better be prepared to wait several hours. I teach, and that's enough of an explanation.
one who,
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Looking forward to it!
First topic: Where is prevenient grace taught in scripture??
IMO, your scripture is way out of context. That won't matter to a Calvinist though. Show me one place in the first chapter of Ephesians where the chapter is speaking of:
1. Predestination of a select few to salvation, and,
2. the reprobation of the rest to an eternity in the Lake of Fire.
In this chapter Paul is teaching of the predestination of the blessings that the elect have because they are in Christ. It is always addressed to those who are "in Christ." We have many blessings because we are "in Christ," and they are enumerated here."
It is not speaking about about being predestinated before the foundation of the world unto salvation. Where does it say that here.
And on what basis does God predestine one to salvation and others to reprobation (randomly? "eeny-meeny-miny-mo"?). Or does He have a judicial method of selection. Of course he does.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
--He has elected us according to His foreknowledge.
Let's not redefine foreknowledge. It is just what it says it is--knowing aforetime or ahead of time, similar to His omniscience.
He knew before the foundation of the world who, of their own free will (which, within the boundaries of his Sovereignty, he has allowed man) who would receive him or reject him. On that basis he chose those that received him and damned those that rejected him. God is just. He is fair. He lives outside the boundaries of time and is able to see the end from the beginning--knowing what man has done before he does it.
He is not a scatter-brained God as the Calvinist portrays Him that randomly selects some for salvation and simply damns the rest for eternity. He is just and has a definite reason. People who end up in hell do so because they themselves have rejected Christ.
Sorry, but if you can't see predestination and election in those verses, then I can't help you.
Here are some more.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
There is predestination in those verses, just not the kind that Calvin teaches. Those that follow the teachings of Calvin are following erroneous teachings.
Show me where predestination to salvation and election to damnation or reprobation are taught in those verses instead of apologizing to me.
Jesus also taught that you should love your enemies...and that's about as radical as your gonna get. On Sunday, a Baptist Pastor started his sermon with ....."Christ died for all" .....I wanted to walk out. See Id already confronted him with that ....but I held my tongue. I will have coffee with him in the next few & he will hear it again though LOL! :thumbs:
Gotta love them :love2:
PreachTony
Active Member
Just curious, but if Christ did not die for all, then how do you evangelize? How do you preach atonement if you do not believe Jesus atoned for all? In order to be honest to yourself and God, you would have to tell a congregation that there are those among you that Christ did not die for, and that He never meant to even offer grace to, and had no intention of saving. That's not a theology I see revealed in the scriptures.
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