Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Thats nice that you put the text here but were you trying to make a point?
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Did Christ Die For The Sin Of Unbelief?
- Thread starter tyndale1946
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Thats nice that you put the text here but were you trying to make a point?
It is a true statement. You do not believe it because doing so would mean you aren't driving the car and the one thing you demand is to drive the car.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Who on here gives Jesus Christ 100% the glory and NONE to man... Very few since I've been on here!... Brother Glen
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
If sinners Christ died for still die in unbelief,it would contradict the very purpose of mercy. See God concluded all His Chosen People in Unbelief ! And what for ? This scripture tells us Rom 11:23
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Now whose the All ? Why he told us in Rom 9:23-24
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
God in His Eternal Purpose in Christ, enclosed the His elect into unbelief, so that, for the purpose of being able to show them mercy, compassion in that state of unbelief/disobedience, not to condemn them for it, as many false teachers teach today, that God condemns sinners Christ died for, for unbelief ! Thats the biggest lie ever told !
Paul is an example of how God has mercy upon His Elect for their unbelief. Remember Pauls testimony of all what he did in unbelief 1 Tim 1:12-13
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
Paul as all other Vessels of Mercy, obtain, receive mercy in their unbelief ! Thats what Paul means in Rom 11:23
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Paul was not broken off because of Unbelief as many other jews were his contemporaries Rom 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
But Paul along with other Vessels of Mercy, not just among the jews, but also among the Gentiles Rom 9:23-24
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
So its not even possible for those whom Christ died should die in or be condemned for unbelief, their unbelief obtains the Mercy of God upon them !
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Now whose the All ? Why he told us in Rom 9:23-24
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
God in His Eternal Purpose in Christ, enclosed the His elect into unbelief, so that, for the purpose of being able to show them mercy, compassion in that state of unbelief/disobedience, not to condemn them for it, as many false teachers teach today, that God condemns sinners Christ died for, for unbelief ! Thats the biggest lie ever told !
Paul is an example of how God has mercy upon His Elect for their unbelief. Remember Pauls testimony of all what he did in unbelief 1 Tim 1:12-13
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
Paul as all other Vessels of Mercy, obtain, receive mercy in their unbelief ! Thats what Paul means in Rom 11:23
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Paul was not broken off because of Unbelief as many other jews were his contemporaries Rom 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
But Paul along with other Vessels of Mercy, not just among the jews, but also among the Gentiles Rom 9:23-24
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
So its not even possible for those whom Christ died should die in or be condemned for unbelief, their unbelief obtains the Mercy of God upon them !
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I am always amazed that there are so many people on here that have such a low regard for the character of God. They seem to require that He has to control every thought and desire. They cannot conceive of a God that actually would, in His sovereignty, allow for a real free will.
They fail to realize that for there to be real love that requires real choices to be made. They are under the illusion that what their view of God means is that they cannot ever really know if they are saved. The faith they have has been given to them they have to hope. It all may be just wishful thinking on their part.
They fail to realize that for there to be real love that requires real choices to be made. They are under the illusion that what their view of God means is that they cannot ever really know if they are saved. The faith they have has been given to them they have to hope. It all may be just wishful thinking on their part.
Don't put free will where it is not... Eternal Salvation is ALL of God in the Death Of His Son Jesus Christ!... One exercises free will as a disciple... God does not drag you to church, you have the free will to go or not and receive the blessings if you go... God does not drag you to serve him but can put obstacles in your way if you don't... God has the right you being his son to chastise those who belong to him... You don't serve him, you suffer... He knows your heart!... He ought too... He changed it... He birthed you... You didn't birth yourself... Sometimes we do things we should and sometimes we do things we shouldn't, because of our free will... Paul was as saved as you and I but to say he didn't struggle to serve the Lord, is an understatement... Free will doesn't save a man, the will of Jesus Christ saved ALL, his Father gave him, no more no less... Brother Glen
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Don't put free will where it is not... Eternal Salvation is ALL of God in the Death Of His Son Jesus Christ!... One exercises free will as a disciple... God does not drag you to church, you have the free will to go or not and receive the blessings if you go... God does not drag you to serve him but can put obstacles in your way if you don't... God has the right you being his son to chastise those who belong to him... You don't serve him, you suffer... He knows your heart!... He ought too... He changed it... He birthed you... You didn't birth yourself... Sometimes we do things we should and sometimes we do things we shouldn't, because of our free will... Paul was as saved as you and I but to say he didn't struggle to serve the Lord, is an understatement... Free will doesn't save a man, the will of Jesus Christ saved ALL, his Father gave him, no more no less... Brother Glen
I agree that we have a free will to make choices but under the theology that you hold that is not a real choice is it as according to you God has decreed/ordained all that happens, no real free will allowed. You want to say man makes free choices but then have to limit what those free choices can be. So I have to ask, do you think you have that kind of power that you can tell God what He can and cannot do with His creation.
Your right, only God can save a person and He does that when we freely trust in His son. The other option is that He has picked out some to save and the rest are condemned to hell just because they were not the lucky ones to be picked. Faith in His son has nothing to do with who was picked. It make salvation seem more like a lottery then anything else.
Now if only your theology went along with what the bible says. You seem to follow a man made theology although you will deny that. Look at your DoG and how you define sovereign. The LBCF/WCF is contradictory in what it says yet people refuse to see that and then claim we do not understand your theology.
I understand what free will is and how the bible says we have it but there are to many on here that have closed their eyes to the truths of scripture.
Paul continues his thought, showing all glory be to Christ Jesus.Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Who on here gives Jesus Christ 100% the glory and NONE to man... Very few since I've been on here!... Brother Glen
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. To give a human example, brothers:even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
~ Galatians 3:1-29
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Did Christ die for the sin of unbelief ?
Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Now the sin of the world did involve unbelief. Eve didn't believe the truth of God. God had said in the day that you eat you shall surely die. Observe Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Now Gen 3:2-4
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
as a result of unbelief:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Now the sin of the world did involve unbelief. Eve didn't believe the truth of God. God had said in the day that you eat you shall surely die. Observe Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Now Gen 3:2-4
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
as a result of unbelief:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your abuse of scripture is noted. Now if you would finally start to trust scripture rather than trust those gnostic teachings then perhaps the truth would finally shine through in your life.
Coming from you, who said the Bible is not enough in another thread and advocated adding to scripture, it is ironic you bring up special knowledge (gnosticism).
I have yet to see you rightly divide the Word of God. Indeed, your abusive interpretations are noted by many of us.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Austin as I said you are the one that runs to extra biblical writings not me, but you have the proven ability to only read what you want and read into the text what you want to see. It is your gnostic views that I point out to you and you try to deflect those and accuse me. You are just showing how desperate you are. You have no understanding of context and that is just one of your downfalls. Many people have shown you your errors but you continue to hold to your gnostic based view. Perhaps God will see fit to shine the light of truth into your life but you will have to see it and accept it which as of now does not seem to be a possibility.
Quote me sharing an extra biblical writing, Silverhair. I am curious to see who I quoted from outside of scripture. I know I have quoted scripture passage after scripture passage to you. I know that you told me the Bible was not enough. It is clear you have no support for your claims.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your whole theology is based on extra biblical teaching starting with what Augustine taught. You just refuse to look at what is right in front of you. (snip) . When you quote scripture it would be nice if you actually read it first. Your picking out a few select words that you think support you just shows your lack of biblical understanding. You need to study scripture more and not trust that errant system your attached to.
By the way you do not have to quote from an extra biblical text for you to support that view. You show your support in all the you write. You are just throwing out a red herring but you like to do that a lot.
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So you cannot provide any extra-biblical documents that I hinge my theology, yet you make a false assertion anyway. Every reader here can see what you are doing.
In fact, your entire accusation is your red herring. Moreso, such accusations as you have leveled do not come from God the Father. You have leveled false accusations against me. What you have done is sin.
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And the dragon lost the battle, and he and his angels were forced out of heaven. This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels. Then I heard a loud voice shouting across the heavens, “It has come at last— salvation and power and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down to earth— the one who accuses them before our God day and night. And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimony. And they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time.”
~ Revelation 12:8-12
~ Revelation 12:8-12
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You still dont believe Christ died for the sin of unbelief ? Thats a shame
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
If you mean the way Owen puts it then no but that is not what I said is it?
While refusal to believe is indeed a sin, the reason it keeps one from salvation is not due to it being a sin, but because unbelief, by definition, precludes belief in Christ, without which no one can be saved (Heb_11:6). As with all sins Christ died for, forgiveness for unbelief is only obtained through subsequent belief in Him. Post # 5
Unbelief is the one sin that cannot be atoned for at the cross as it is the unforgivable sin. If a person does not believe then they cannot be saved. Would you not agree with that? Post # 10
If unbelief were covered, along with all the other sins, then that would rule out the requirement for forgiveness as their sins would all be covered. If faith/belief in Christ Jesus is the one requirement that God has placed on our salvation and if unbelief was dealt with at the cross via the atonement then that would remove the requirement for belief. Post # 13
Owen was arguing for a position that belief is not required for salvation as it, as a sin, was covered by the atonement. By his argument he is saying that the "elect of the world" would not have any sins to answer for as they were all dealt with at the cross and thus would not need to believe to be saved.
I do find it odd that Owen would think that Christ Jesus was able to atone for all the sins of some men, the elect, but was unable to atone for all the sins of all men. Were the elect somehow different from the rest of mankind?
In answer to your question, yes unbelief is a sin but it is the condition that is required for the forgiveness of our sins. Post # 17
BF52 I think you have got to reread the posts before you make any further comments. You seem to be holding to what Owen put forward. But then you are determined to think that way. Owens' bad theology led him to some bad conclusions.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well since that is what the bible say then that seems like a good idea don't you think.
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