Did Christ Die For The Sin Of Unbelief?

[37818]

Where did you get the idea that τετελεσται means "paid in full"?

The passage literally means it was accomplished or performed. I think ypu may be reading into the passage.

That said, it has no bearing on the fact that the idea God punished Christ instead of punishing us is extra-biblical. I'm not sure how where we are in this discussion.

I first heard it from the pulpit at Faith Baptist Church of Canoga Park in the 70's. BTW Strong's has as part of the general definition ". . . discharge (a debt) . . . ." Also the view of the atonement as I presented it stands against annihilationism. The death of Christ's soul and His conscious suffering being completed, John 19:28, before His physical death.

 

[DaveXR650]

If one Christ died for dies in unbelief, then it rendered His Death ineffective.33

When Owen was defending his theology against Arminians and Papists and Pelagians, as he said he was in The Death of Death in the Death of Christ he is rough in his treatment of opponents and rigid in his logic because the stakes were high. But look at his preaching:

"Generally, this is taken for granted by all, that Christ is able to save us if he will; yea, who shall question his ability to save us, though we live in sin and unbelief? And many expect that he will do so, because they believe he can if he will. But indeed Christ has no such power, no such ability: he cannot save unbelieving, impenitent sinners; for this cannot be done without denying himself, acting contrary to his word, and destroying his own glory. Let none please themselves with such vain imaginations. Christ is able to save all them, who come to God by him. Whilst you live in sin and unbelief, Christ himself cannot save you...." location 10338 in the Kindle (Meditations and Discourses Concerning the Glory of Christ , Chapter 1)
I didn't keep quoting for length but if you keep reading he goes on in a beautiful way to assure us of "his power to save those that shall comply with his call is sovereign, uncontrollable, almighty, that nothing can stand in the way of. All things in heaven and earth are committed unto him; - all power is his; and he will use it unto this end,namely, the assured salvation of All that come to him."

 

[DaveXR650]

I post the above because I get in trouble with some of the militant Calvinists on this site which is fine, this is a debate forum, but I maintain my position that the "limited atonement" as used by modern theologians is at best hard to understand and unhelpful. And we are applying it in a way the original "Calvinists" did not intend or do themselves. Owens preaching is awful close to an old fashioned Baptist or Methodist and I think some of the modern Calvinists have made a god out of the "system" they hold so dear. I can prove this and give you locations and references from sermons by Owen, Bunyan, and Watson for starters.

 

[Brightfame52]

When Owen was defending his theology against Arminians and Papists and Pelagians, as he said he was in The Death of Death in the Death of Christ he is rough in his treatment of opponents and rigid in his logic because the stakes were high. But look at his preaching:

"Generally, this is taken for granted by all, that Christ is able to save us if he will; yea, who shall question his ability to save us, though we live in sin and unbelief? And many expect that he will do so, because they believe he can if he will. But indeed Christ has no such power, no such ability: he cannot save unbelieving, impenitent sinners; for this cannot be done without denying himself, acting contrary to his word, and destroying his own glory. Let none please themselves with such vain imaginations. Christ is able to save all them, who come to God by him. Whilst you live in sin and unbelief, Christ himself cannot save you...." location 10338 in the Kindle (Meditations and Discourses Concerning the Glory of Christ , Chapter 1)
I didn't keep quoting for length but if you keep reading he goes on in a beautiful way to assure us of "his power to save those that shall comply with his call is sovereign, uncontrollable, almighty, that nothing can stand in the way of. All things in heaven and earth are committed unto him; - all power is his; and he will use it unto this end,namely, the assured salvation of All that come to him."

Again:
If one Christ died for dies in unbelief, then it rendered His Death ineffective.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Where did you get the idea that τετελεσται means "paid in full"?

The passage literally means it was accomplished or performed. I think you may be reading into the passage.

That said, it has no bearing on the fact that the idea God punished Christ instead of punishing us is extra-biblical. I'm not sure how where we are in this discussion.

The Greek word teleo can mean 'to pay.' It means this in Matthew 17:24 and Romans 13:6.
I have read that ancient bills of lading and other commercial activity have been discovered by archaeologists which have τετελεσται stamped on them: 'Paid in full.'

 

[JonC]

The Greek word teleo can mean 'to pay.' It means this in Matthew 17:24 and Romans 13:6.
I have read that ancient bills of lading and other commercial activity have been discovered by archaeologists which have τετελεσται stamped on them: 'Paid in full.'

I doubt very seriously many would think the passage should read that Jesus cried out with a loud voice "It is paid!".

I have, however, also read the claim. Personally, I have not seen (honestly, never looked very hard) to evidence that claim. It makes sence on a bill (it is accomplished or finished, the bill has been paid). But it sounds strange on currency.

Do you have a source actually depicting such currency?

It does not matter so much in this discussion as Scripture tells us we were purchased.

I'm just interested in the reference you mention.

 

[DaveXR650]

Again:
If one Christ died for dies in unbelief, then it rendered His Death ineffective.

And again, Owen said both. I would suggest that there is a difference between metaphysical musings in a debate and how you preach to people. Owen's views in the OP are right on but probably not the best way to preach to folks and that accounts for the seeming difference in his sermon as compared to his debate. If you dogmatically repeat your point without analysis you do have to deal with Owen vs Owen.

 

[JonC]

Again:
If one Christ died for dies in unbelief, then it rendered His Death ineffective.

I disagree. Christ's death is still effective, just not towards salvation. All judgement has been given to Him, all things placed under His feet. Even the judgment of the lost is Christ centered because of His work.

 

[37818]

Romans 8:34, ". . . Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, . . ."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I doubt very seriously many would think the passage should read that Jesus cried out with a loud voice "It is paid!".

I have, however, also read the claim. Personally, I have not seen (honestly, never looked very hard) to evidence that claim. It makes sense on a bill (it is accomplished or finished, the bill has been paid). But it sounds strange on currency.

Do you have a source actually depicting such currency?

It does not matter so much in this discussion as Scripture tells us we were purchased.

I'm just interested in the reference you mention.

As you know, I no longer engage in discussions with you, I was merely stating a point of fact which you had denied. Any Greek dictionary will tell you that one of the meanings of teleo is to 'pay,' and I gave you two Scripture verses where this is the case. Why therefore you would pour scorn on the idea that our Lord may have meant "It is paid!" says more about your pre-suppositions than anything else.
I did not say that tetelestai is found on currency. It is found on bills of lading and other commercial transactions. I found this when I was researching for a sermon ten or more years ago, but I don't remember where. It would have been in a commentary or possibly in Pink's Seven sayings of the Saviour on the Cross. I do not have time to look for it now. I expect that it would be found quite easily on the Internet.

 

[JonC]

As you know, I no longer engage in discussions with you, I was merely stating a point of fact which you had denied.

Then don't. Each of us has to decide how we will interact with a brother.

I agree the word appearing on a bill (a notice of debt) means that the debt has been paid, the intent of the notice accomplished, and it's purpose finished.

I enjoy reading your posts and am content to learn from you by reading your interactions with other people.

 

[AustinC]

I disagree. Christ's death is still effective, just not towards salvation. All judgement has been given to Him, all things placed under His feet. Even the judgment of the lost is Christ centered because of His work.

Jon, if Jesus death was not for the purpose of salvation, what is it for?
I am reading Leviticus 1-7 and wondering what Jesus sacrifice effectively accomplishes if not the holiness of the person for which Jesus sacrificed himself.
This is an area in which, for me, you have been vague and unclear.

 

[Brightfame52]

Frankly speaking if Christ didn't die for the sin of unbelief, none could be saved, since God put all men in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Nobody will be saved from a sin Christ didn't die for ! The sole way to be saved from any sin is for Christs blood to have taken it away, purged it Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

So if by chance you are saved from unbelief, and yet Christ didn't die for it, congratulations, you saved yourself from your sin of unbelief, you are your own saviour !

 

[JonC]

Jon, if Jesus death was not for the purpose of salvation, what is it for?
I am reading Leviticus 1-7 and wondering what Jesus sacrifice effectively accomplishes if not the holiness of the person for which Jesus sacrificed himself.
This is an area in which, for me, you have been vague and unclear.

Salvation was a purpose of Christ's work. So was establishing God's Kingdom.

 

[Brightfame52]

And again, Owen said both. I would suggest that there is a difference between metaphysical musings in a debate and how you preach to people. Owen's views in the OP are right on but probably not the best way to preach to folks and that accounts for the seeming difference in his sermon as compared to his debate. If you dogmatically repeat your point without analysis you do have to deal with Owen vs Owen.

Again:
If one Christ died for dies in unbelief, then it rendered His Death ineffective. Has nothing to do with John Owen

 

[Brightfame52]

I disagree. Christ's death is still effective, just not towards salvation. All judgement has been given to Him, all things placed under His feet. Even the judgment of the lost is Christ centered because of His work.

Christs death is mainly for Salvation. If thats not His main objective by His death, then nothing is. As far as the permanently lost are concerned, Christ death wasn't for them any way. So again, If Christ died for an individual, and they are lost forever because of unbelief and any other sin, Christs death was ineffective.

 

[DaveXR650]

Again:
If one Christ died for dies in unbelief, then it rendered His Death ineffective. Has nothing to do with John Owen

How can it have nothing to do with John Owen when the OP started with a quote from John Owen and John Owen said Christ can't help you if you don't believe.

 

[JonC]

Christs death is mainly for Salvation. If thats not His main objective by His death, then nothing is. As far as the permanently lost are concerned, Christ death wasn't for them any way. So again, If Christ died for an individual, and they are lost forever because of unbelief and any other sin, Christs death was ineffective.

I believe Christ's work was mainly to redeem mankind (to purchase all men), but to save those who believe.

Your conclusion - that if Christ died for an individual who is not saved then Christ's death was ineffective - is flawed. It would be correct, however, if you said "If Christ died to save all men then Chruat's death is ineffective towards those who remain lost", or even "if Christ purposed to save every individual then He failed at that purpose".

 

[1689Dave]

I believe Christ's work was mainly to redeem mankind (to purchase all men), but to save those who believe.

Your conclusion - that if Christ died for an individual who is not saved then Christ's death was ineffective - is flawed. It would be correct, however, if you said "If Christ died to save all men then Chruat's death is ineffective towards those who remain lost", or even "if Christ purposed to save every individual then He failed at that purpose".

God would be unjust if he saved anyone without first justifying them from their sins. He justified an arbitrarily selected group called the elect to glorify his mercy. And rejected the rest to glorify his wrath and sovereignty. Paul speaks of this in a couple of places. Unbelief is part of his wrath carried out on the reprobate. Belief is part of the mercy he shows to the elect.

 

[JonC]

God would be unjust if he saved anyone without first justifying them from their sins. He justified an arbitrarily selected group called the elect to glorify his mercy. And rejected the rest to glorify his wrath and sovereignty. Paul speaks of this in a couple of places. Unbelief is part of his wrath carried out on the reprobate. Belief is part of the mercy he shows to the elect.

I do not believe God arbitrarily saves. I do see an issue with divorcing salvation from justification, though. I am not sure we can speak of God justifying somebody and then saving them (or vice versa). I understand "logical order", but too often it is logical only depending on the conversation.

In other words, no man is saved without being justified and no man is justified without being saved.