Did Christ Die Only for the Elect

[Pastor Larry]

In all reality if sticking your hand out first constitutes being born, then you could say Esau was first born. Otherwise, the whole issue of Esau being rightful birthright heir is moot.

I think you are confusing the birth of Judah's sons, Perez and Zerah. Esau was unquestionably the first born.

 

[Jonah]

AHHH not again!!

I think you are confusing the birth of Judah's sons, Perez and Zerah. Esau was unquestionably the first born.

:BangHead: Yep I am a victim of cross-linked brain again
Genesis 38:28​

 

[Salamander]

God "would" that is willed that every man should be saved, it is man's will that dictates he would not get saved for his choosing his own will vs God's will.

God's moral will is to save all men. God's decreed will is that ll men would get saved but men are created in the image of God and have a will that either submits to the will of God or rebels against it. Otherwise there could be no obedience, it all would be robotics.

To assume God has a moral will that refutes sin and yet allows its due course is pitting God against himself to eradicate sin. To say that God decreed that only the chosen will be saved goes against His will to allow obedience to the Gospel to have due course in any man's life. saying his will is decreed for only a few to be saved is tyranny to all those who would otherwise desire to be saved.

I have not found one person who could ever tell me that anything was wrong with being saved, that institutes a 100% -0 that all men do earnestly desire to be saved, it's just they won't all obey the Gospel.

Key in on that word "won't", that means "will not".

If men "will" not be saved it is according to that man's will, not God's willing that all men be saved.

 

[Rangerus]

Here is part of sermon from CH Spurgeon on Particular Redemption:

Particular Redemption

A Sermon Delivered on Sabbath Morning, February 28, 1858 by the

REV. C.H. SPURGEON

At the Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens



"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many."—Matthew 20:28.

V. I have hurried over that, to come to the last point, which is the sweetest of all. Jesus Christ, we are told in our text, came into the world "to give his life a ransom for many." The greatness of Christ's redemption may be measured by the EXTENT OF THE DESIGN OF IT. He gave His life "a ransom for many." I must now return to that controverted point again. We are often told (I mean those of us who are commonly nicknamed by the title of Calvinists—and we are not very much ashamed of that; we think that Calvin, after all, knew more about the Gospel than almost any man who has ever lived, uninspired), we are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made a satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is, that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it: we do not. The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, "No, certainly not." We ask them the next question—Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer "No." They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say, "No; Christ has died that any man may be saved if"—and then follow certain conditions of salvation. We say, then, we will go back to the old statement—Christ did not die so as beyond a doubt to secure the salvation of anybody, did He? You must say "No;" you are obliged to say so, for you believe that even after a man has been pardoned, he may yet fall from grace, and perish. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as to infallibly secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say, "No, my dear sir, it is you that do it." We say Christ so died that He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it.

Now, beloved, when you hear any one laughing or jeering at a limited atonement, you may tell him this. General atonement is like a great wide bridge with only half an arch; it does not go across the stream: it only professes to go half way; it does not secure the salvation of anybody. Now, I had rather put my foot upon a bridge as narrow as Hungerford, which went all the way across, than on a bridge that was as wide as the world, if it did not go all the way across the stream. I am told it is my duty to say that all men have been redeemed, and I am told that there is a Scriptural warrant for it—"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." Now, that looks like a very, very great argument indeed on the other side of the question. For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.

 

[mparkerfd20]

Here is part of sermon from CH Spurgeon on Particular Redemption:

Great find and a good sermon. Here's the entire sermon: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm

 

[MB]

I am currently indexing a forthcoming book entitled: Communities of Conviction: Baptist Beginnings in Europe. In the text when speaking of Particular Baptist the following statement is made:



Do you agree with the belief that Christ died only for the elect? If so, why? If not, why not?

I don't believe there is such a thing as particular election to Salvation. The Word says Christ is the propitation for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Either the whole world is elect or election doesn't occur until after the man believes. I've never worried about whether or not I'm elected.

I believe men must at least passively, listen to the gospel being preached. I also believe all men can hear if they will but listen. Faith is a gift but it can only come through listening to the word being preaced. I believe the Holy Spirit works on those who listen to convince them of Christ and to convict them of there sins. Conviction can be unbearable, at least it was for me. It took me to my knees in submission to the righteousness of God.

Men do have a choice and that choice is to stop the process through rebellion. It is a choice of whether to rebel or not. I don't believe men have a Choice of Christ or not because Salvation is all of God. Although rebellion from something you have been convinced of, leaves the man in conviction. He will never have relief from that conviction unless he submits.

I believe that rebellion is what makes men hate Christianity so much. Hate is the only thing that can numb the pain of there conviction even though the conviction will be with them all the way to hell. So they must hate Christ all the way to hell.

The thing that amazes me is that even just the name of Jesus Christ is so powerful. Just His name has the power of conviction.
MB

 

[Pastor Larry]

I don't believe there is such a thing as particular election to Salvation.

So when the Bible says "God chose you to salvation" you think it is inaccurate?

Either the whole world is elect or election doesn't occur until after the man believes.

So when the Bible says that "God chose you from the beginning," you think man believed from the beginning? Or you think it is inaccurate?

The thing that amazes me is that even just the name of Jesus Christ is so powerful. Just His name has the power of conviction.

What does this mean?

 

[Jerome]

Great find and a good sermon. Here's the entire sermon: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm

From Spurgeon's concluding paragraph:

"Leaving controversy, however, I will now answer a question. Tell me, then, sir, whom did Christ die for? Will you answer me a question or two, and I will tell you whether He died for you. Do you want a Saviour? Do you feel that you need a Saviour? Are you this morning conscious of sin? Has the Holy Spirit taught you that you are lost? Then Christ died for you and you will be saved. . . . Your only question is, "Did Christ die for me?" And the only answer we can give is—"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ came into the world to save sinners." Can you write your name down among the sinners—not among the complimentary sinners, but among those that feel it, bemoan it, lament it, seek mercy on account of it? Are you a sinner? That felt, that known, that professed, you are now invited to believe that Jesus Christ died for you, because you are a sinner; and you are bidden to cast yourself upon this great immovable rock, and find eternal security in the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen."

 

[mparkerfd20]

From Spurgeon's concluding paragraph:

"Leaving controversy, however, I will now answer a question. Tell me, then, sir, whom did Christ die for? Will you answer me a question or two, and I will tell you whether He died for you. Do you want a Saviour? Do you feel that you need a Saviour? Are you this morning conscious of sin? Has the Holy Spirit taught you that you are lost? Then Christ died for you and you will be saved. . . . Your only question is, "Did Christ die for me?" And the only answer we can give is—"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ came into the world to save sinners." Can you write your name down among the sinners—not among the complimentary sinners, but among those that feel it, bemoan it, lament it, seek mercy on account of it? Are you a sinner? That felt, that known, that professed, you are now invited to believe that Jesus Christ died for you, because you are a sinner; and you are bidden to cast yourself upon this great immovable rock, and find eternal security in the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen."

Yes! And you are making what point again?

 

[ray Marshall]

God "would" that is willed that every man should be saved, it is man's will that dictates he would not get saved for his choosing his own will vs God's will.

God's moral will is to save all men. God's decreed will is that ll men would get saved but men are created in the image of God and have a will that either submits to the will of God or rebels against it. Otherwise there could be no obedience, it all would be robotics.

To assume God has a moral will that refutes sin and yet allows its due course is pitting God against himself to eradicate sin. To say that God decreed that only the chosen will be saved goes against His will to allow obedience to the Gospel to have due course in any man's life. saying his will is decreed for only a few to be saved is tyranny to all those who would otherwise desire to be saved.

I have not found one person who could ever tell me that anything was wrong with being saved, that institutes a 100% -0 that all men do earnestly desire to be saved, it's just they won't all obey the Gospel.

Key in on that word "won't", that means "will not".

If men "will" not be saved it is according to that man's will, not God's willing that all men be saved.

Haven't you read what condition the natural man is outside of the spiritual. The natural man doesn't care about GOD. In fact he has no fear of GOD in him. Now let's see, you have and old Chevrolet,in a field, all rusty, no tires, No battery, no Gas and ect. Do you say to that old car, 'Now if you will just get up, come to me then you are in a fit condition to run.

 

[webdog]

Haven't you read what condition the natural man is outside of the spiritual. The natural man doesn't care about GOD. In fact he has no fear of GOD in him. Now let's see, you have and old Chevrolet,in a field, all rusty, no tires, No battery, no Gas and ect. Do you say to that old car, 'Now if you will just get up, come to me then you are in a fit condition to run.

...yet God has put in the "natural man" the desire to be immortal (Ecc. 3:11), has written His law in their hearts (Rom. 2:15) and has presented the Truth to them (Rom. 1). Now, if God has equipped men with everything they need, He has not left anyone to themselves, but has taken the initiative in the lives of all men. He has essentally told man to "get up, come to me..." THIS is when some choose to obey, and others don't (Rom 1 again). Some accept the Truth, others oppress the Truth...but they both had to make a decison with the Truth which is not what your theology teaches.

 

[MB]

So when the Bible says "God chose you to salvation" you think it is inaccurate?

The Bible is always right. It's mans perception of what it says that's incorrect. The Bible doesn't say we are elected or chosen particularly.

So when the Bible says that "God chose you from the beginning," you think man believed from the beginning? Or you think it is inaccurate?

The Bible doesn't say that I was chosen from the beginning It says I was chosen "In Him" from the beginning. If I had been from the beginning I wouldn't have been born in sin.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The underlined above shows what this choosing is for. I do not see where it says we were chosen from the beginning to Salvation. The things listed tell us what we are chosen for and can only happen as a result of being forgiven and saved.

What does this mean?

It means that just the mention of the name Jesus Christ convicts the lost.
MB

 

[webdog]

So when the Bible says "God chose you to salvation" you think it is inaccurate?

No, but I don't stop there, I read how "through..."

 

[Pastor Larry]

The Bible is always right. It's mans perception of what it says that's incorrect. The Bible doesn't say we are elected or chosen particularly.

That's exactly what it say: God chose from the beginning for salvation.

The Bible doesn't say that I was chosen from the beginning It says I was chosen "In Him" from the beginning.

2 thess 2:13 says God chose you from the beginning for salvation.

If I had been from the beginning I wouldn't have been born in sin.

Not at all. The reason you were chosen is because you would be in sin. You are creating contradictions in the Bible.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The underlined above shows what this choosing is for. I do not see where it says we were chosen from the beginning to Salvation.

What do you think salvation is? It is being holy and blameless before him. ("In love" actually goes with the next verse.)

It means that just the mention of the name Jesus Christ convicts the lost.

No, that doesn't even make any sense.

 

[Pastor Larry]

No, but I don't stop there, I read how "through..."

According to the text, salvation comes through the setting apart of the Spirit and belief in the truth. Not the choosing.

 

[webdog]

According to the text, salvation comes through the setting apart of the Spirit and belief in the truth. Not the choosing.

No, you were chosen FOR salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit AND belief in the Truth. This is how you were chosen for salvation.

 

[Pastor Larry]

No, you were chosen FOR salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit AND belief in the Truth. This is how you were chosen for salvation.

That's not what the text says. In the text, sanctification/belief modifies salvation, not chosen.

You were chosen from the beginning for salvation. That's what it says. Sanctification/belief are the means of salvation, not the basis of choosing. Again, that's simply what the text says.

 

[MB]

That's exactly what it say: God chose from the beginning for salvation.

You forgot the "IN HIM"

2 thess 2:13 says God chose you from the beginning for salvation.
It also says "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" This mean "IN HIM" if we are chosen through Sanctification. In others words with out the sanctification you cannot be chosen.

Not at all. The reason you were chosen is because you would be in sin. You are creating contradictions in the Bible.

Nope I'm reading what it says. If you see contradictions I didn't put them there.

What do you think salvation is? It is being holy and blameless before him. ("In love" actually goes with the next verse.)

It's being Sanctified.

No, that doesn't even make any sense.

What's so hard to understand? That the name of Jesus Christ has any power at all or that His name being mentioned can convict the lost?

 

[Pastor Larry]

You forgot the "IN HIM"

No, it's not in the verse I was citing.

2 thess 2:13 says God chose you from the beginning for salvation.
It also says "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" This mean "IN HIM" if we are chosen through Sanctification. In others words with out the sanctification you cannot be chosen.

"In him" is not in that verse. Please be more careful with Scripture. The sanctification there is the setting apart of the Spirit (that's what the word means). In this context it is not the after salvation spiritual growth.

Nope I'm reading what it says. If you see contradictions I didn't put them there.

You didn't intend to, I am sure. But you have no options. You said if you have been chosen from the beginning you wouldn't have been born in sin. Yet the Bible says you were chosen from the beginning and were born in sin. Therefore you have created a contradiction.

It's being Sanctified.

Um, no. It certainly leads to that. But no one who is chosen are holy and blameless until death unless you consider who we are in him by virtue of salvation and union with Christ. And once you concede that, you have admitted that I am correct.

What's so hard to understand? That the name of Jesus Christ has any power at all or that His name being mentioned can convict the lost?

The Bible doesn't teach that the the mere speaking of a series of letters such as "JESUS" or "CHRIST" have any convicting power. It is what that name stands for and the truth behind it that convicts.

 

[webdog]

That's not what the text says. In the text, sanctification/belief modifies salvation, not chosen.

You were chosen from the beginning for salvation. That's what it says. Sanctification/belief are the means of salvation, not the basis of choosing. Again, that's simply what the text says.

But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning [f] God has chosen (O) you for salvation through sanctification (P) by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

The means of being chosen for salvation are sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the Truth. It doesn't just say you were chosen from the beginning for salvation. You cannot separate the means of salvation from the purpose of what you were chosen for. The basis of choosing is connected via the work of the Holy Spirit and faith (belief in the Truth) in "God's Elect One".