Did Christ died for all men or just some men?

[MB]

Hi Jarthur;

Lets see how this works from your free-will side. If God foreknow Johnny will be saved, and this is based on what God saw as He looked down though time, how is it that Johnny "might" be saved? Does this not mean that Johnny MUST be saved? If God made Johnny to be saved and this be part of Gods plan now, could Johnny say no thanks?

Where does scripture say that God's foreknowledge determines the actions of men? God can know what men do in advance because, he has that power. Although man must do it or, God doesn't know that man did it. It isn't that God knew it and there fore man must do it. God doesn't determine the doings of men by knowing them in advance. If God's foreknowledge insured that men would do certain things then why bother with predestination? Why would God determine anything for man why not just know it and be done with it if his foreknowledge had anything to do with it? The reason is, man must do it in order for God to know it. Certainly God wouldn't know it unless man does it.
You questioned the word "MIGHT" in John 3:17 as if it doesn't really mean what it clearly says. It doesn't mean Johnny will be saved but might be saved. There is nothing that says anyone is made to be saved and therefore must be. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. Salvation is for those who surrender. Like it or not surrender is an act of the will.
Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world not just a few.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Why would Christ pay for everyones sins just to save a few?
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

There is savable potential for every living soul.
It is God's will that we all repent. He granted repentance to all the Gentiles.
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Jesus gave Himself as a ramsom for all;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

There isn't anything that is particular about Salvation either we believe or not. This is why we might be saved.
MB

 

[MB]

Hi Amy;

No, of course Jesus didn't die for the Jews only. Matt 1:21 is referring to the OT prophecy of Isaiah 7:14. The Jews were looking for the Messiah to save them from their sins. The phrase "His people" is referring to the Jews who were expecting the Messiah. Here's another verse:
John 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Who do you think His own refers to here? The elect? Those chosen by God for salvation? If so, how could they "not receive" Him?
Jesus ministry was to the Jews. They rejected Him. He then, through Paul took the gospel to the Gentiles.

Absolutely true Amy. "A men":thumbs: Gentile aren't His people until they're saved at which time we are adopted.
MB

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello MB,

Where does scripture say that God's foreknowledge determines the actions of men?

In fact it does not say this. This is the end of the logic held by free-willism.

God doesn't determine the doings of men by knowing them in advance.

Indeed. God knows it because God decreed it. It will happen, for it was Gods will for it to happen. As it turns out God is in control.

If God's foreknowledge insured that men would do certain things then why bother with predestination?

And that would be my point MB. Free-willers go to the ends of the earth to get around election, saying it based on God looking down in time and only doing what he sees happen. This is the same as hyper-calvinism, other then God is not in control, but rather mans will controls God from before time was. I think I'll stick with Calvinism. At least in it, God is not a robot.

Why would God determine anything for man why not just know it and be done with it if his foreknowledge had anything to do with it? The reason is, man must do it in order for God to know it.

Well well well. I guess all do not believe God knows all. Here we have a man teaching God something. humm. Not sure about that.

Certainly God wouldn't know it unless man does it.

Well....my God does.

You questioned the word "MIGHT" in John 3:17 as if it doesn't really mean what it clearly says. It doesn't mean Johnny will be saved but might be saved.

nope. You missed the point. If God foresaw this happen...johnny MUST be saved.

There is nothing that says anyone is made to be saved and therefore must be. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. Salvation is for those who surrender. Like it or not surrender is an act of the will.

Please read the passage below and tell me who did the choosing and when was it done.

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

***

Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world not just a few.

Do you have any idea what ransom means? If the ransom is paid for, then there is no guilt. This means all go to heaven. The cross was not a picture as the stonement in the OT. Christ work was real.

Why would Christ pay for everyones sins just to save a few?

Indeed...in fact He did not. Christ died for the elect....His people...His sheep....His Church......His Friends...for ALL of His Children scattered abroad...or around the world.

Matthew 1
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 15
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend.

John 10
11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

John 11

51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Acts 20
28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.



In Christ...James

 

[Tom Butler]

Gentile aren't His people until they're saved at which time we are adopted.
MB

Then please explain John 10:16 "...other sheep have I which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

An obvious reference to Gentiles. Jesus called them his sheep.

 

[psalms109:31]

His Sheep

We all know who His sheep is it is believers from gentiles and from the Jews.

One thing we also should know being His Sheep is if we disown Him, He will disown us.

We are not to be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either.

All Jews is His sheep and we who are Gentiles, are included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

The reason why the Jews were cut out was cut, it was not because they were not chosen, but for unbelief.

All of our security is not in election, but in Jesus. Put your trust in Jesus even if you do not think you are the elect of God and He will not disappoint you.

 

[Rippon]

All Jews are not His sheep . His sheep are from among both Gentiles and Jews . These elect ones are the ones for whom He laid down His life .

 

[psalms109:31]

Rippon

Rippon, I am sorry but the scripture clearly shows that He called the Jews from the beginning to be His and the scripture clearly teaches why the Jews who were cut was cut out for. It was unbelief. Jesus came into His own and His own received Him not.

Plain and simple.

 

[Rippon]

Simply wrong Ps. Jesus died for the Jewish nation and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God , to bring them together and make them one . ( from John 11:51,53 )

 

[psalms109:31]

Plain and simple

Jesus came to save believers in Him, and they are His Sheep.

All Jews have been chosen, the ones have been cut out is unbelievers.

Hebrews 3:

Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

You can set all the rules and requlation you want to in front of me and the word of God tell that God has set them aside and gave us a better hope in which we draw near to God through Jesus Christ.

Don't let men tell you that God doesn't love you, because He does. He loved you so much that He sent His Son.

We all are unworthy. Our only hope is Jesus, because the wages of our sin is death, but Jesus was not sent into the world not to condemn you but to save you.

I with the word of God will tell to trust in Jesus even if these men say you can't and you will not be disappointed.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello psalms109:31

Being that you posted Heb 3 as proof that the Jews were "cut off"...
and the main line from that passage is.. 'They shall never enter my rest.' ....

I would like to know what you think "my rest" means in this passage.
Are you saying "my rest" means heaven?

Your post....

All Jews have been chosen, the ones have been cut out is unbelievers.
Hebrews 3:

Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

You can set all the rules and requlation you want to in front of me and the word of God tell that God has set them aside and gave us a better hope in which we draw near to God through Jesus Christ.

also you posted this....

Don't let men tell you that God doesn't love you, because He does. He loved you so much that He sent His Son.

I can understand you saying..."do not let men tell you"...
But..what if we can find in the Bible that God does not love all men the same? Should we believe the Bible?

 

[psalms109:31]

Hello psalms109:31

Being that you posted Heb 3 as proof that the Jews were "cut off"...
and the main line from that passage is.. 'They shall never enter my rest.' ....

I would like to know what you think "my rest" means in this passage.
Are you saying "my rest" means heaven?

Our rest is in Jesus, Jesus is the only place that we can find rest. As Jesus is greater that Moses, we have a medator. If they do not not persist in thier unbelief God is able to graft them in again


Your post....

also you posted this....


I can understand you saying..."do not let men tell you"...
But..what if we can find in the Bible that God does not love all men the same? Should we believe the Bible?

I have no problem with that, now that Jesus is glorified when we lift Jesus up He will draw all men to Himself. To give them a choice to believe in His Son and be saved or not and be condemned

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello psalms109:31

Our rest is in Jesus, Jesus is the only place that we can find rest. As Jesus is greater that Moses, we have a medator. If they do not not persist in thier unbelief God is able to graft them in again

Well I would agree with this.
What I mean.....the way you used the passage before, seems to hint that you think Heb 3 is talking about salvation. Am I reading you right?

I have no problem with that, now that Jesus is glorified when we lift Jesus up He will draw all men to Himself. To give them a choice to believe in His Son and be saved or not and be condemned

When you say Jesus will draw all men to Himself, do you think this has been done? Lets forget about all men of the past, and just look at this age we live in. Do you see all men drawn to Jesus? Would you say more people are in church worshipping God, or are more people out of Church making fun of our worship? The verse you use is in John 12

12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

So I have to ask....

1) What is meant by the word draw?
2) Are all men drawn to Jesus at this moment?
3) Has this event taken place?

 

[psalms109:31]

scipture

Well I would agree with this.
What I mean.....the way you used the passage before, seems to hint that you think Heb 3 is talking about salvation. Am I reading you right?

The rest that God is talking about is rest from the Law.

The rest is not what I am talking about and yes they were cut out for unbelief.

When we face God by disowning Jesus in this life, He will disown us plan and simple. So if we do persist in our unbelief, we will not be saved.

What is meant by the word draw?

We are drawned just like the young rich ruler and we can walk away just like the young rich ruler.

Are all men drawn to Jesus at this moment?

Only when we lift Jesus up, not election, but Jesus.

Has this event taken place?

This event takes place every time Jesus is lifted up, not our man-made doctrine, but Jesus

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello psalms109:31,

We are drawned just like the young rich ruler and we can walk away just like the young rich ruler.

OK. The Passage you use says "all men." Do you see all men drawn to Christ, just as you see the rich young ruler?

I asked...Are all men drawn to Jesus at this moment?
You said...Only when we lift Jesus up, not election, but Jesus.

Do all men see Jesus lifted up? Lets say in Iran. Do you fell like most men in Iran see Jesus lifted up? If this is what this means...and all do not see Christ lifted up...how is all men drawn to Him?

I asked....Has this event taken place?
You said...This event takes place every time Jesus is lifted up, not our man-made doctrine, but Jesus

Not that I agree with this....but to understand your view.
How many times do you think Jesus died? The passage is clear....

12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

 

[psalms109:31]

Signification

The cross is the power of God unto salvation, it does signify what death Jesus would die.

Generation after generation we lift up the same Jesus for salvation.

He is to be lifted up just like they did in the desert, and any one who looks upon Him for salvation shall be healed.

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them.

We are the messenger of the Father if we do not go out and tell the world about Jesus no one will come.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello psalms109:31,

The cross is the power of God unto salvation, it does signify what death Jesus would die.

Well...I would agree with this.

Generation after generation we lift up the same Jesus for salvation.

Are you saying this is what is meant by "if I be lifted up"? If we do not lift up Jesus, does this mean men are not drawn to Him?

He is to be lifted up just like they did in the desert, and any one who looks upon Him for salvation shall be healed.

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them.

In other words....

If men are arond to see or hear Jesus lifed up, they will be drawn by the Holy Spirit to Him?

If they are not around to see it, or hear it....will they be drawn?

We are the messenger of the Father if we do not go out and tell the world about Jesus no one will come.

And if no one goes will there be some that never hear?

 

[webdog]

Are you saying this is what is meant by "if I be lifted up"? If we do not lift up Jesus, does this mean men are not drawn to Him?

James, you know very well the "if" is not a "what if" but rather "when". Are you questioning if it happened or not?

In other words....

If men are arond to see or hear Jesus lifed up, they will be drawn by the Holy Spirit to Him?

If they are not around to see it, or hear it....will they be drawn?

This is a strawman and you know it. You are starting to play the same games johnp plays.

And if no one goes will there be some that never hear?

See above responce.

 

[psalms109:31]

Crowd

Jesus words are Spirit and they are life, without the words of Jesus we have no life.

Following the crowd does not mean we are drawn to Jesus by the Father.

 

[Jarthur001]

James, you know very well the "if" is not a "what if" but rather "when". Are you questioning if it happened or not?

This is a strawman and you know it. You are starting to play the same games johnp plays.

See above responce.

I hold another view so this is fair to ask.

Has this event happened?
Is it happening today?

The verse reads..
12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

This passage is used by many, saying that ALL of mankind are drawn to Christ. I will word it just as you wish. psalms109:31 says..it is up to us to lift up Christ.

When Christ is lifed up, are all men drawn by the Holy Spirit? If it is up to us to lift up Christ...WHEN we lift up Christ do all men hear this? If not WHEN will all men be drawn to Christ?

You only use a stawman as your own strawman not to reply.

Has Christ been lifted up?

Therefore...it is very fair to ask...

If men are around to see or hear Jesus lifed up, they will be drawn by the Holy Spirit to Him?

If they are not around to see it, or hear it....will they be drawn?

We have yet to get to the good part.

 

[Jarthur001]

Jesus words are Spirit and they are life, without the words of Jesus we have no life.

Following the crowd does not mean we are drawn to Jesus by the Father.

You quoted this passage.

12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

Is this passage saying all mankind will be drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit???
That is what I'm asking. Yes or no will work for me.