Did Jesus preach to spirits in Paradise?

[loDebar]

Except Jesus didn't say that. He said she shouldn't cling to Him, because He had to go away.

What about Elijah and Enoch? The bible says both of them went to heaven. And God is not a respecter of persons so, if they, righteous OT saints, went to heaven doesn't that mean they all did?

It would have defiled the sacrifice. Comparable to the OT priest not touching after cleansing.
Jhn 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God

We go to Heaven, All righteous OT now are in Heaven but before the Jesus Crucifixion they could not. They were waiting in Paradise of Abraham bosom.

Elijah was caught up into heaven shamayim שָׁמַיִם shâmayim, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused singular שָׁמֶה shâmeh; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve):—air, × astrologer, heaven(-s)

I cannot find a verse saying Enoch and heaven

i don't where they were but the general idea is the price of admission had to be paid before we can enter Heaven

 

[TCassidy]

Then you believe Hell is in Heaven

No, I don't. Please don't post falsehoods regarding what I believe.

 

[TCassidy]

I cannot find a verse saying Enoch and heaven

“Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him” (Gen 5:24). “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him” (Heb 11:5).

i don't where they were but the general idea is the price of admission had to be paid before we can enter Heaven

The OT saints were in heaven, just like Elijah and Enoch.

This whole "Protestant Purgatory" nonsense is just that. It is based on a nonsensical interpretation of the Eph passage that does violence to the actual meaning of Psalm 68.

 

[loDebar]

not Protestant purgatory , not for the wicked, Paradise for the righteous. as the Parable of Lazarus says.

Enoch did not go to Heaven , God took him. Elijah was going up in the heavens, Elisha was still looking.


more importantly, no one could go to heaven until the sacrifice was presented and accepted. Consider all the same rituals in the sacrifices of the OT, especially the scapegoat, even Yom Kippur.

At the Crucifixion , /Jesus said in Paradise, but we do not expect to go to Paradise , except as Heaven, is a paradise.
.....present with the Lord .... could not be until the sin debt was paid...

 

[TCassidy]

no one could go to heaven until the sacrifice was presented and accepted.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

.....present with the Lord .... could not be until the sin debt was paid...

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[loDebar]

names are not written in the book ...... from the foundation of the earth

compare to
Rev 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is

We know when Jesus was slain, and the purpose the world was created .. He saves us by His Crucifixion

 

[TCassidy]

We know when Jesus was slain, and the purpose the world was created .. He saves us by His Crucifixion

You seem to be unaware that Christ's blood was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in Heaven, thus confirming the Sacrifice on our behalf.

Heaven exists outside of time, in eternity. Therefore the sacrifice of Christ is an eternally efficacious sacrifice.

Think of it this way. Imagine God sitting at a table. On the table in front of Him is a yard stick. The yard stick represents the timeline of creation.

God can apply the atoning blood anywhere on the yardstick.

He can apply it to Adam, or to Moses, or to Matthew, or to you. He is not limited by time. In fact, he can touch the yardstick at the time of Moses while, at the exact same time, touch the yardstick at the time of Paul. He is Eternal. He is not limited by time.

The sacrifice of Christ is an Eternal Sacrifice. You are trying to limit God the Son to the constraints of time. He cannot be so limited. God is Eternal.

 

[loDebar]

but His death is in time,

His blood can only be applied when Christ was obedient unto death. True God can apply it anytime as desired but He applied it once for ALL sin.

The adjective did not apply to Jesus but the names in the book. as other evidence shows

 

[loDebar]

How many times a year was the Mercy Seat used?

 

[TCassidy]

His blood can only be applied when Christ was obedient unto death.

You missed the point. The blood was applied to the Mercy Seat in Heaven and is thus outside of time. The OT saints didn't have to wait for anything. God applied the blood to them from outside of time. They were saved by the blood applied just like everyone else. God is not limited by time.

I am not sure how else to say that to help you understand it. God is not limited by time.

 

[TCassidy]

How many times a year was the Mercy Seat used?

We are not talking about something that happened in time. We are talking about the Mercy Seat in Heaven. The very word, in Hebrew, translated "atonement" is a reference to the cover of the Ark of the Covenant which we call the Mercy Seat. But you must remember, the earthly Mercy Seat is but a copy of the true Mercy Seat in Heaven. It is on that Mercy Seat that Christ sprinkled His blood. Heb 9:12 makes that abundantly clear, "nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption."

 

[loDebar]

It is a yearly figure of what would happen with the Mercy Seat in Heaven,

By your verse "entered once in the Holy Place" .
I agree it is outside of time but events happen accordingly and the entry into the Holy Place and the application of the shed blood happened once and had to happen after His Death. The application of the blood allowed us sinners to access Heaven or God's presence , He is too Holy to allow unpaid sin . Sinners who are paid for by the blood are now welcome. Thus Paradise was required until Jesus could apply the blood.

Events on earth have affect in Heaven.

 

[TCassidy]

had to happen after His Death.

There is no "before" or "after" in Eternity. There is just the eternal "Now."

The application of the blood allowed us sinners to access Heaven or God's presence

Just as it always did. Applied to the OT saints, to the NT saints, and to us, from Eternity.

Sinners who are paid for by the blood are now welcome.

Just as they always were.

Thus Paradise was required until Jesus could apply the blood.

It was applied in Eternity. God is not limited by time.

 

[loDebar]

Then why the story of the Rich man and Lazarus? Lazarus was not in Heaven.

Events happen in sequence in Heaven , even though not subject to time.

Just as the blood was applied in the Holy Place once . It could not be applied until after He died. The blood could not apply to anyone else before it was applied. That is why Heb 11 .... accounted for righteousness.... not salvation..
Now it applied to all even those OT saints, They were on credit before

 

[TCassidy]

Then why the story of the Rich man and Lazarus? Lazarus was not in Heaven.

Of course he was. Because you don't understand what "Paradise" means does not mean Lazarus was not in heaven.

Events happen in sequence in Heaven , even though not subject to time.

No. Sequence and duration are factors of time, not Eternity.

It could not be applied until after He died.

There is no "before" and "after" in Eternity.

The blood could not apply to anyone else before it was applied.

It was applied in Eternity.

 

[kyredneck]

no one could go to heaven until the sacrifice was presented and accepted

I always get a kick when there's someone stating matter of factly what God can or cannot do

 

[loDebar]

good grief ,, When was the blood applied, before or after His death? I does not matter if there is time in Heaven, it was applied once,, no blood on altar, them blood on altar. no time involved

The descriptions used in the parable suggest the Rich man and Lazarus had a great gulf? Where are are two in the same place, one tormented the other consoled?

 

[loDebar]

I always get a kick when there's someone stating matter of factly what God can or cannot do

They could not go to Heaven but had to go to Paradise. God is too Holy.

 

[Yeshua1]

I always get a kick when there's someone stating matter of factly what God can or cannot do

God could not allow them to come into His prsense until the lord Jesus died and atoned for them, and rose from the dead. remember the curtain being torn?

 

[TCassidy]

God could not allow them to come into His prsense until the lord Jesus died and atoned for them, and rose from the dead. remember the curtain being torn?

Poppycock. Satan himself came into the presence of God. And the Atonement was placed on the Mercy Seat in Heaven, which is in eternity. You gotta let go of this "Protestant Purgatory" nonsense.

Since OT times the OT saints knew where they went at the time of death.

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?