Did Paul teach the Pre-Trib view?

[revmwc]

We see too in Revelation 14:9-11, 9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Then we see, verses 18-20, 18 "And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Then Revelation 15:1 "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." 7 "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

Revelation 16:1 "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

That whole period in which the seven angels are sent is the time of the wrath of God. Starting in Revelation 6 we see verse 17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"


Paul as the OP states said, we are to 10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

That wrath is the Tribulation period, as seen in Revelation 6-19. As Prophesied by Christ, Matthew 24:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

We see the fulfillment of Matthew 24:30 here in Revelation 19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."
He is coming with power and glory to conquer.

This time between Revelation 6 and 19 has not been fulfilled the time of the wrath of God and of which Paul stated Christ has delivered those who believe on Christ from "from the wrath to come."

Then He showed how that would occur in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18, 13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

He says Christ has delivered us from the wrath and then how it will happen, that by a "harpazo" catching away or snatching away.

So by this it appears Paul did teach a pre-tribulation Rapture as did Matthew in Matthew 24:10. There are many scriptures which show us this. Revelation 20 specifically says there will be a ressurection just for the unbeliever and it will occur after the Snactching away of the church and after the Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints and Old Testament saints, we see verse 5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

 

[HankD]

Then explain the following Scripture:

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The above teaches a general resurrection and judgment. That was the dominant doctrine of Baptists until Darby had his epiphany as I have shown on two recent threads:

How Many Resurrections In Revelation? Posts 82, 83, and 85!

3 Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ Posts 157, 158, 159!

Hi OR,

We have been down this path before. Perhaps (underline perhaps)
Jesus meant it with this purview in mind:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

That is, that at the rebirth we are presently spiritually resurrected as well as being made ready for our future bodily resurrection.

Also, there is no absolute indication that "the resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" happen at the same time in John 5:29.

The issue, (as is being pointed out) is the apparent multiple resurrections of the Book of Revelation.

However, some believe that the Book of Revelation is a "chiasm", that is it is a seven fold repeating cycle of the same incidents cast under different venues (Google "Book of Revelation", "chiasm").

But, a chiastic approach to the Book of Revelation might allow for a general Resurrection.


HankD

 

[OldRegular]

Hi OR,

We have been down this path before. Perhaps (underline perhaps)
Jesus meant it with this purview in mind:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

That is, that at the rebirth we are presently spiritually resurrected as well as being made ready for our future bodily resurrection.

I believe John 5:24, 25 is talking about the rebirth or spiritual resurrection.

Also, there is no absolute indication that "the resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" happen at the same time in John 5:29.

John 5:28 states "the hour is coming". To me that indicates a single time period. That was the position taken in most of the Baptist Confessions prior to Darby.

The issue, (as is being pointed out) is the apparent multiple resurrections of the Book of Revelation.

I believe the resurrection of the two witnesses must not be taken literally. The Scripture states:

Revelation 11:3-4, KJV
3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Now obviously the above cannot be taken literally. The two witnesses are not literal olive trees or literal candlesticks! Therefore, the statements about their death and subsequent coming to life should not be taken literally.

However, some believe that the Book of Revelation is a "chiasm", that is it is a seven fold repeating cycle of the same incidents cast under different venues (Google "Book of Revelation", "chiasm").

But, a chiastic approach to the Book of Revelation might allow for a general Resurrection.


HankD

I first read of the parallelism in the Book of Revelation in a Commentary, Behold he Cometh, by Herman Hoeksema. He saw parallelism only in the seals, trumpets, and bowls. That view made a lot of sense to me. Later I came to believe there are actually a seven fold picture of events in Revelation and seven pictures of the return of Jesus Christ. This is the view taken by the Reformation Bible, formerly the New Geneva Bible.

 

[revmwc]

I believe John 5:24, 25 is talking about the rebirth or spiritual resurrection.



John 5:28 states "the hour is coming". To me that indicates a single time period. That was the position taken in most of the Baptist Confessions prior to Darby.



I believe the resurrection of the two witnesses must not be taken literally. The Scripture states:

Revelation 11:3-4, KJV
3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Now obviously the above cannot be taken literally. The two witnesses are not literal olive trees or literal candlesticks! Therefore, the statements about their death and subsequent coming to life should not be taken literally.



I first read of the parallelism in the Book of Revelation in a Commentary, Behold he Cometh, by Herman Hoeksema. He saw parallelism only in the seals, trumpets, and bowls. That view made a lot of sense to me. Later I came to believe there are actually a seven fold picture of events in Revelation and seven pictures of the return of Jesus Christ. This is the view taken by the Reformation Bible, formerly the New Geneva Bible.

I believe John 5:24, 25 is talking about the rebirth or spiritual resurrection.

So you align with the Saduceess of Jesus time who said the body would not come out of the Grave and yet Jesus came forth out of the Grave or was that not to be taken literally?

John 5:28 states "the hour is coming". To me that indicates a single time period. That was the position taken in most of the Baptist Confessions prior to Darby.

According to this the hour came when those in the grave heard Jesus we see it here,

Ephesians 4:9-10, 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
first we see Jesus descended into paradise of which we know from His teaching was separated by a Great gulf and those in torments could talk to those in Paradise, we see this in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

Then we see 1st Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Peter says Christ preached unto the spirits in prison, that would be those in torments, they all heard everyone who was in the grave heard Him. When did this occur, Paul said when He descended so that "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice", The hour came and those in the grave heard his voice.

Then he carried the souls in Paradise to Heaven, how do we know this we see Paul again, this would have been your spiritual interpretation. But if that be so then no one else would be saved. 2 Corinthians 5:8 shows this change of the O.T. souls by where we now go according to Paul. "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." Paul made it very clear that when we die we go to Heaven to be with Christ. The souls in prison stayed in prison until He returns to the earth and completes His mission of the Kingdom.


"Now obviously the above cannot be taken literally. The two witnesses are not literal olive trees or literal candlesticks! Therefore, the statements about their death and subsequent coming to life should not be taken literally."

Zechariah 4:2 2 “And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:”

Verse 4 fulfillment of Zechariah and means that they are under the protection of God. the olive tree and candlestick represent God has anointed them and protects them.

This shows it all to be literal.

 

[OldRegular]

Brother Hank,

Adding to the above.

I take an idealist approach to the interpretation of the Book of Revelation, that is, I see the book as setting forth eternal truths concerning the conflict between good and evil and that the imagery of the book has no particular relation to any historical events. I would add a caveat in that I see certain historical events that clearly, at least in my mind, picture this struggle between good and evil and perhaps show the hand of GOD in some outcomes. The destruction of the Spanish Armada for example! I can also see Communism as perhaps a manifestation of the beast of Revelation.

I believe the idealist approach is perhaps more consistent with the idea of seven fold repeating cycles in Revelation than any other approach.

 

[OldRegular]

I believe John 5:24, 25 is talking about the rebirth or spiritual resurrection.

So you align with the Saduceess of Jesus time who said the body would not come out of the Grave and yet Jesus came forth out of the Grave or was that not to be taken literally?

Do you understand what the rebirth or spiritual resurrection are? If not you should read John 3:3ff.

 

[revmwc]

Do you understand what the rebirth or spiritual resurrection are? If not you should read John 3:3ff.

Our rebirth is when we receive Christ as our personal savior, that we Believe Christ died for our sins, that He became the propiatiation for our sins and that we are spiritually reborn. We are Baptized with the Holy Spirit at Salvation, He comes and indwells our lives, He also fills us at that time. We can lose the filling of the Spirit how Ephesians 5:18 tells that we can, be ye not drunk with wine wherein is excess but be ye filled with the Spirit. That is don't let sin dominate your life let Christ. Paul said we are not only to believe but to Call upon the Name of the Lord for Salvation. We become a complete person at salvation, we have a body, soul and a human spirit that comes to life and have spiritual understanding as long as we don't let sin interrupt our Spiritual walk. fortunately god says if we confess those sins that is name them one by one He will forgive those sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness that is sins we have committed and haven't realized they are sins.

So yes I understand it quite well. The Resurrection of our bodies will take place too.

We see in Revelation 11:8-12 exactly what a resurrection and harpazo is, 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

We see their dead bodies lie in the street, physically dead, they come to life and are caught up "Harpazo" snatched away into heaven. There is no doubt their physically dead bodies came back to life in a resurrection body.

Paul is clear we shall not all sleep that is die physically but we will all be changed, from a corruptible body to one of incorruption, no doubt Paul is saying the physical body will be changed to one like Christ Resurrection body. Unless of course you question that happened then you have a deeper problem. John said we would be like Him, that have a body like His.

Scripture upon scripture proves out a snatching away a Harpazo of the church. Christ said He would take her out prior to the wrath of God and that she would not go through the time of Trial that is coming upon the whole world.

 

[OldRegular]

Scripture upon scripture proves out a snatching away a Harpazo of the church. Christ said He would take her out prior to the wrath of God and that she would not go through the time of Trial that is coming upon the whole world.

I present a Scripture that clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment:

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now see if you can match the above with one passage that just as clearly shows the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church?

 

[revmwc]

I present a Scripture that clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment:

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now see if you can match the above with one passage that just as clearly shows the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church?

I already showed you but you missed it I guess.

First verse 28 has already been accomplished shown in post #7, you might have missed it,

Here again we see the answer to verse 28,

Ephesians 4:9-10, 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
first we see Jesus descended into paradise of which we know from His teaching was separated by a Great gulf and those in torments could talk to those in Paradise, we see this in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

Then we see 1st Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Peter says Christ preached unto the spirits in prison, that would be those in torments, they all heard everyone who was in the grave heard Him. When did this occur, Paul said when He descended so that "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice", The hour came and those in the grave heard his voice. Then he carried the souls in Paradise to Heaven, how do we know this we see Paul again, 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." Paul made it very clear that when we die we go to Heaven to be with Christ. The souls in prison stayed in prison until He returns to the earth and completes His mission of the Kingdom.

verse 29, The last part is fulfilled in Revelation 20:
5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."


After the 1000 years we see,

Revelation 20:11-15, 11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now where are the just Resurrected, first we see Revelation 4 and a call come up hither, then we see at the end of the Tribulation period that Jesus talked about this

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

We see Revelation 19 and the bride she is already in Heaven and has been there as the Marriage festival was celebrated preparing herself for the week the 70th week of Daniel, the final 7 years of his prophecy.
Verses 7-9, 7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

Then we see after the marriage is completed we see Revelation 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
The church identified as the Bride in verses 7-9 accompanies Christ to earth. The final Resurrection of the just the First resurrection complete with the Tribulation saints and Old Testament Saints Resurrected and seated on the thrones and in the Kingdom for the 1000 year period.

After the Ressurection of the unjust in Revelation 20, we see Revelation 21:1, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
This after the second resurrection and Great White throne judgment.

Again scripture upon scripture as it aligns with eschatological teaching.

 

[Darrell C]

I present a Scripture that clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment:

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now see if you can match the above with one passage that just as clearly shows the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church?

The Lord isn't speaking of the Rapture, He is speaking the same revelation provided in Daniel 12:1-2.

Paul declares the catching away as a mystery, a previously unrevealed truth.

So it would be foolish to seek a comparison between the two.


God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

I present a Scripture that clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment:

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now see if you can match the above with one passage that just as clearly shows the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church?

I already showed you but you missed it I guess.

First verse 28 has already been accomplished shown in post #7, you might have missed it,

Here again we see the answer to verse 28,

Ephesians 4:9-10, 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
first we see Jesus descended into paradise of which we know from His teaching was separated by a Great gulf and those in torments could talk to those in Paradise, we see this in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

Then we see 1st Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Peter says Christ preached unto the spirits in prison, that would be those in torments, they all heard everyone who was in the grave heard Him. When did this occur, Paul said when He descended so that "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice", The hour came and those in the grave heard his voice. Then he carried the souls in Paradise to Heaven, how do we know this we see Paul again, 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." Paul made it very clear that when we die we go to Heaven to be with Christ. The souls in prison stayed in prison until He returns to the earth and completes His mission of the Kingdom.

verse 29, The last part is fulfilled in Revelation 20:
5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."


After the 1000 years we see,

Revelation 20:11-15, 11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now where are the just Resurrected, first we see Revelation 4 and a call come up hither, then we see at the end of the Tribulation period that Jesus talked about this

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

We see Revelation 19 and the bride she is already in Heaven and has been there as the Marriage festival was celebrated preparing herself for the week the 70th week of Daniel, the final 7 years of his prophecy.
Verses 7-9, 7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

Then we see after the marriage is completed we see Revelation 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
The church identified as the Bride in verses 7-9 accompanies Christ to earth. The final Resurrection of the just the First resurrection complete with the Tribulation saints and Old Testament Saints Resurrected and seated on the thrones and in the Kingdom for the 1000 year period.

After the Ressurection of the unjust in Revelation 20, we see Revelation 21:1, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
This after the second resurrection and Great White throne judgment.

Again scripture upon scripture as it aligns with eschatological teaching.

The above is what is known as "a snow job", about 2 feet deep I suspect! But keep trying and avoid the question.

 

[Darrell C]

The above is what is known as "a snow job", about 2 feet deep I suspect! But keep trying and avoid the question.

I would agree...deep and clean.

Now the stuff being shoveled in opposition to it...


God bless.

 

[revmwc]

The above is what is known as "a snow job", about 2 feet deep I suspect! But keep trying and avoid the question.

So you believe Jesus didn't preach to the Souls in prison?

Ephesians 4:9-10, 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
first we see Jesus descended into paradise of which we know from His teaching was separated by a Great gulf and those in torments could talk to those in Paradise, we see this in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

Then we see 1st Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

If so you contradict both Paul and Peter who said He did, and if He did preach when He descended that covered everyone who was in the Grave at that time and it fulfills your question. This John 5:28. "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice," has occurred according to scripture just as Jesus said it would.

The resurrection comes and btw when Jesus cleared out Paradise did not those souls, those spiritual souls go to Heaven in a form of the resurrection of the good to Heaven.

We know He did because Paul says, 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
We go to Heaven now and from Revelation we know that the Old Testament Saints are there, so Christ must have resurrected them into Heaven, the just to life the unjust stayed right there waiting on their final condemnation.

I still the Resurrection coming when the church is Snatched away as Paul states will happen and as we see the call to come up hither in Revelation 4 and the final in Revelation 20.

I just wanted to show how your belief in a spiritual resurrection could have already occurred.

 

[OldRegular]

So you believe Jesus didn't preach to the Souls in prison?

Ephesians 4:9-10, 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
first we see Jesus descended into paradise of which we know from His teaching was separated by a Great gulf and those in torments could talk to those in Paradise, we see this in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

Then we see 1st Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

If so you contradict both Paul and Peter who said He did, and if He did preach when He descended that covered everyone who was in the Grave at that time and it fulfills your question. This John 5:28. "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice," has occurred according to scripture just as Jesus said it would.

The resurrection comes and btw when Jesus cleared out Paradise did not those souls, those spiritual souls go to Heaven in a form of the resurrection of the good to Heaven.

We know He did because Paul says, 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
We go to Heaven now and from Revelation we know that the Old Testament Saints are there, so Christ must have resurrected them into Heaven, the just to life the unjust stayed right there waiting on their final condemnation.

I still the Resurrection coming when the church is Snatched away as Paul states will happen and as we see the call to come up hither in Revelation 4 and the final in Revelation 20.

I just wanted to show how your belief in a spiritual resurrection could have already occurred.

What was the point. Scripture tells us:

Hebrews 9:27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[revmwc]

What was the point. Scripture tells us:

Hebrews 9:27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Point being the Resurrection will take place as separate events for believers and unbelievers.

Christ preached to all in the Graves, I showed scripture where that occurred and you ask someone to show where it happened, I did.

The church will be caught up Paul made that clear, the church is with Christ in Heaven as seen in Revelation 19 called the Bride. The believers of the Tribulation are raised from the dead at the beginning of the Kingdom and the unbelievers, the rest of the dead are not raised until the 1000 years have ended. We see that in Revelation 20.

 

[OldRegular]

Point being the Resurrection will take place as separate events for believers and unbelievers.

Christ preached to all in the Graves, I showed scripture where that occurred and you ask someone to show where it happened, I did.

The church will be caught up Paul made that clear, the church is with Christ in Heaven as seen in Revelation 19 called the Bride. The believers of the Tribulation are raised from the dead at the beginning of the Kingdom and the unbelievers, the rest of the dead are not raised until the 1000 years have ended. We see that in Revelation 20.

So! One more Scripture you don't believe!

Hebrews 9:27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

And you have yet to address the following:

I present a Scripture that clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment:

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now see if you can match the above with one passage that just as clearly shows the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church?

But go your merry way or rather John Nelson Darby's way!

 

[HankD]

Brother Hank,

Adding to the above.

I take an idealist approach to the interpretation of the Book of Revelation, that is, I see the book as setting forth eternal truths concerning the conflict between good and evil and that the imagery of the book has no particular relation to any historical events. I would add a caveat in that I see certain historical events that clearly, at least in my mind, picture this struggle between good and evil and perhaps show the hand of GOD in some outcomes. The destruction of the Spanish Armada for example! I can also see Communism as perhaps a manifestation of the beast of Revelation.

I believe the idealist approach is perhaps more consistent with the idea of seven fold repeating cycles in Revelation than any other approach.

It's a difficult book perhaps the most difficult in the Bible.
No wonder there is a blessing attached to it for reading, hearing and keeping those things written in it.

HankD

 

[revmwc]

So! One more Scripture you don't believe!

Hebrews 9:27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

And you have yet to address the following:


But go your merry way or rather John Nelson Darby's way!

How many times do I need to answer it?

 

[OldRegular]

It's a difficult book perhaps the most difficult in the Bible.
No wonder there is a blessing attached to it for reading, hearing and keeping those things written in it.

HankD

Actually there are seven blessings promised in the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 1:3, KJV
3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Revelation 14:13, KJV
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 16:15, KJV
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Revelation 19:9, KJV
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 20:6, KJV
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 22:7, KJV
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22:14, KJV
14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I have no doubt that the Book of Revelation is prophetic since the 1st blessing above tells us so. However, it seems to me that these sevenfold blessings promised are sufficient evidence to show that the futurist interpretation of Revelation is incorrect!

 

[Calypsis4]

I have no doubt that the Book of Revelation is prophetic since the 1st blessing above tells us so. However, it seems to me that these sevenfold blessings promised are sufficient evidence to show that the futurist interpretation of Revelation is incorrect!

Really? Quote: "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him:" Rev. 1:7.

Tell us, Oldregular: when did this happen?