Did Paul teach the Pre-Trib view?

[DHK]

I have presented Scripture showing a general resurrection of all the dead and a general judgment. You ignore it. Yet you are unable to present a single passage of scripture showing the so-called-pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church! Furthermore you like most on this BB put the teachings of JOHN NELSON DARBY ahead of Scripture, the early Baptist fathers, and Charles Spurgeon who shows in the above quote that Darby's belief on the atonement was cultic to say the least!

What is your fetish with Darby?
Who here admits to following him?
If no one here admits to following him, why do you keep quoting him. He is an obsession to you, almost as an idol.
I have never thoroughly read his works, and am totally unaware of his views on the atonement. Neither do I care. Darby is not a reference, nor an authority in my books. I don't quote from him, but you are obsessed with him.

There are good pre-mill sources well before his time. '
You deny that. But the fact remains.

 

[OldRegular]

The Paulicians, Albigeneses, Waldenses, and other sects, bore testimony to the Premillennial return of the Lord.

Premillennialism is not dispensationalism. Charles Spurgeon was a premillennialist but I have already presented some of his remarks about Darby's heretical beliefs on the atonement. Following are some additional thoughts by Spurgeon:

From {http://prophecylight.blogspot.com/2013/08/spurgeons-end-times-theology.html}

Spurgeon's End Times Theology

C.H. Spurgeon
CHARLES SPURGEON CONTEMPORARY OF JOHN NELSON DARBY
John Darby's ideas formed the foundation upon which the pre-tribulation rapture (Left Behind) doctrine stands. The following quote is taken from a post that Charles Spurgeon's grandson, Tommie Spurgean, posted on his own website in order to awaken Darby's followers to the fact that the Baptist Movement had initially rejected Darby's proposals, and today it has chosen to honor Darby instead of Spurgeon when it comes to eschatology.


CHARLES SPURGEON AND END-TIME PROPHECY

“Charles Spurgeon believed that the Baptist faith was exactly the same as the early Church under the Apostles and he taught that. Yet today if he was applying for a job as a pastor in a Baptist church and he told them how he believed about the Rapture and the Resurrection he would be rejected. His scriptural understanding and messages are praised by many and they often place him at the top of the list for their spiritual leadership. But there are things in Prophecy that he taught that the Baptist would reject as heresy. One of the reasons many do not know what CH Spurgeon taught on Prophecy was the fact that he never preached in direct messages such as a sermon on the rapture or end times. But we know what he believed by what he included in his messages of salvation and enlightenment because he often included his belief in prophecy in the message itself rather than it being the main topic of his sermon.

What most believers do not know is that Charles Spurgeon believed that the Rapture and Resurrection would happen at the same time following the Great Tribulation. That the judgement seat of Christ would happen and Satan would be bond for a thousand years He also believed that Jesus would then literally set up his kingdom on earth and rule for a thousand years. He believed that a second resurrection would occur after the thousand-year reign for the unrighteous dead. This would be followed by the great white throne judgement of God and then there would be a new heaven and a new earth.

During Spurgeon’s day there was another preacher that people today believe was a knowledgeable man on prophecy. His name was John Darby. It is amazing to me that the Baptist organization would accept his teachings over Charles Spurgeon. Charles did not care for the teachings of Darby and if he were alive today would be preaching in direct opposition to him. He did it back then and he would continue to do it today. What I am referring to is the belief that the Rapture and Resurrection would occur before the tribulation. How could anyone believe that Darby had a greater understanding than what CH Spurgeon did? Spurgeon was not ignorant when it came to prophetic teachings and took them just as serious as his teachings on grace because he wanted his listeners to know the truth. However his main focus was on the cross of Christ and Salvation because he felt that it was more important than prophecy, however he did include prophecy teachings in his preaching and teaching. He did not reject end-time prophecy or think that it was wrong to be enlightened by it.”

An article at www.spurgeon.org/mainpage.html had the following to say:

Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Pastor of the Metropolitan Tabernacle and contemporary of Darby published criticism of Darby and Brethrenism. His main criticism was that Darby and the Plymouth Brethren rejected the vicarious purpose of Christ's obedience as well as imputed righteousness. He viewed these of such importance and so central to the gospel that it led him to this statement about the rest of their belief. "With the deadly heresies entertained and taught by the Plymouth Brethren, in relation to some of the most momentous of all the doctrines of the gospel, and to which I have adverted at some length, I feel assured that my readers will not be surprised at any other views, however unscriptural and pernicious they may be, which the Darbyites have embraced and zealously seek to propagate"

“Another thing that Charles Spurgeon rejected about John Darby was his teachings on dispensationalism. This belief teaches that the Jews are under a different covenant than the one we have to day and do not need to be saved through the preaching of the Gospel the same as the Gentiles. He believed that when Jesus came back he would rule over them in Jerusalem but they would be saved by their own covenant with him. At that time dispensationalism taught that Israel would not go back to the land of Palestine until Jesus returned at Armageddon. Charles Spurgeon disagreed with their teaching and said that he believed that the Jews would return to the land of Palestine before Jesus came back. He was right and John Darby was wrong. Charles also taught that the Jews had to be saved through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that many would be born-again before Jesus came back. Clarence Larkin came along after Darby and improved upon his theory of dispensationalism by including that 144,000 Jews would be saved during the tribulation but the rest would not accept Jesus until he comes back. Charles Spurgeon would have rejected this as well.

This issue may not seem to be important to some but it is very important to me and those that are trying to reach the Jews with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What I would like to point out is that most churches believe John Darby and Clarence Larkin over Charles Spurgeon. Charles Spurgeon in our day couldn’t be licensed or perform any duties in any church such as Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of God, Methodist, etc because he didn’t believe that the Rapture would occur before the Tribulation. There were many more great men of God in his day and before that did not accept that and wouldn’t accept it to this very day. Why does it matter? There are over 13million Jews in the world today that need to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The modern day teaching of pretribulation rapture and the teachings on dispensationalism prevent a very large number of Christians from even praying that the Jews will be saved. It is interesting to note that many evangelicals are supportive to Israel because they want to be blessed by doing so, but they are only interested in blessing Israel in material ways, not spiritual. Their salvation is very important and Satan has thrown up a smoke screen to keep Christians from seeking God for Israel’s salvation. The Scriptures teach us that it is our responsibility to reach Israel with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The churches in America are so dug into dispensation teachings that they would not allow Spurgeon or any other great man of God to pastor or preach in any of their churches. I am amazed at that. In fact many churches will run off members that do not agree with it or peer-pressure a person until they are afraid of not being accepted unless they do. We do not realize how anti-Semitic this is.

John Hagee will tell you that to preach the Gospel to the Jews is a waste of time. Yet if you were to tell people such as Jews for Jesus or other Jews that have been born again you would soon realize how ridiculous this is. Their souls are as important as any Gentile and we should realize it. It took me a long time to realize why people like John Hagee and others could be so hard when it comes to the Jews and salvation? Now I realize that they are defending what they were taught in Bible College being taught dispensation teachings. They don’t want to lose their license. By the way John Hagee does have a great concern when it comes to protecting the lives of the Jews and I appreciate what he is doing with defending Israel. But it is very important that while we protect the sinner that we provide the Gospel for their souls as well and not teach against it. The teaching of pre-tribulation Rapture leaves the Jews out of the Rapture because most will be saved during the Tribulation period itself and the Bible is clear on this. But they will have to receive the Gospel from us, the Gentiles. There are only two Resurrections in Scripture; one when Jesus comes back and the other at the end of the millenium for the unrighteous dead. The Rapture and Resurrection occur at the same time in the same moment. If we miss the Rapture there will be no eternal life because we won’t be changed. To leave the Jews out of this and to say that God prefers us over them is anti-Semitic and a sin.

 

[OldRegular]

What is your fetish with Darby?
Who here admits to following him?
If no one here admits to following him, why do you keep quoting him. He is an obsession to you, almost as an idol.
I have never thoroughly read his works, and am totally unaware of his views on the atonement. Neither do I care. Darby is not a reference, nor an authority in my books. I don't quote from him, but you are obsessed with him.

From what Spurgeon says Darby is a heretic so I could care less about him. However, I have shown repeatedly quoting dispensational scholars that Darby is the father of pre-trib-dispensationalism and that he claims new revelation in developing that doctrine. You may not like it but that is the truth.

There are good pre-mill sources well before his time. '
You deny that. But the fact remains.

I don't deny it. But that is not dispensational premillennialism. There is a vast difference between historic or covenant premillennialism which has the correct view of the Church and dispensational premillennialism which teaches that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel!

 

[revmwc]

I have presented Scripture showing a general resurrection of all the dead and a general judgment. You ignore it. Yet you are unable to present a single passage of scripture showing the so-called-pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church! Furthermore you like most on this BB put the teachings of JOHN NELSON DARBY ahead of Scripture, the early Baptist fathers, and Charles Spurgeon who shows in the above quote that Darby's belief on the atonement was cultic to say the least!

No the scripture you presented I have shown to be pre-tribulational in view, you call it a snow job, false doctrine etc. Yet every scripture you presented I showed you the pre-trib view or the fulfillment, you refuse to believe what I wrote. You have presented no conclusive scripture which shows no rapture, no tribulation and no 1000 year reign. You interpret them one way I interpret them another.

The verse I presented to start this thread was one that I read that day and it jumped out to me. The Holy Spirit saying here is the promise to keep us for the wrath, and the wrath according to Revelation is the Tribulation all the events of Revelation 6-19. I had never seen it nor really thought of it that way. No commentary told this nothing Iread except the passage itself and that is the interpretation I saw it as, no Darby, no Henry not one scholar did I consult. It just jumped out at me as hey here we have the promise of not going through the Tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 1: 10 “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

By our salvation Christ has delivered us for the Tribulation (wrath) to come.

 

[tyndale1946]

So you like many others on this BB are a devotee of the false doctrines invented and promulgated by John Nelson Darby of the Cult of the Plymouth Brethern!

From Spurgeon's The Sword and the Trowel {http://www.spurgeon.org/s_and_t/dbreth.htm}

Thanks for that article Old Regular!... Now I know!

The four views are historicist, preterist, futurist, and idealist.

I hold to ALL views!... I am a partial preterist, ahmillennialist, historical, idealist or spiritual and futurist!

II Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

To me embracing all views is essential in studying Revelation. Each view has validity and not one view alone inconclusive devoid of all the others. To understand one view is tunnel vision but to understand all and put them in their proper place is to see the big picture of Gods redemption alone... Brother Glen

 

[revmwc]

I just did a quick word study from the Greek the same Greek word used in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 for wrath "orge" is used in Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Perfectly backing up that we have been saved from the WRATH (orge) to come. Verse 17 of Revelation says the Great day of His WRATH (orge) has come. Beautiful how the Holy Spirit reveals truth to those of us open to His teaching.

 

[Calypsis4]

OldRegular;From what Spurgeon says Darby is a heretic so I could care less about him. However, I have shown repeatedly quoting dispensational scholars that Darby is the father of pre-trib-dispensationalism and that he claims new revelation in developing that doctrine. You may not like it but that is the truth.

No, it is not the truth. You have been corrected numerous times from the clearly worded statements of the early Christian church scholars but that makes no difference to you. You either diss what you are given or just ignore it altogether, a la Luke 21.

I don't deny it. But that is not dispensational premillennialism. There is a vast difference between historic or covenant premillennialism which has the correct view of the Church and dispensational premillennialism which teaches that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel!

I have a question for you: At His return is Jesus coming like a lion roaring or will He come as a thief in the night(quietly, covertly as thieves always do)?

 

[Calypsis4]

I just did a quick word study from the Greek the same Greek word used in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 for wrath "orge" is used in Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Perfectly backing up that we have been saved from the WRATH (orge) to come. Verse 17 of Revelation says the Great day of His WRATH (orge) has come. Beautiful how the Holy Spirit reveals truth to those of us open to His teaching.

Amen. I have preached that very point for many years. You're right on target. :thumbsup:

 

[revmwc]

From what Spurgeon says Darby is a heretic so I could care less about him. However, I have shown repeatedly quoting dispensational scholars that Darby is the father of pre-trib-dispensationalism and that he claims new revelation in developing that doctrine. You may not like it but that is the truth.



I don't deny it. But that is not dispensational premillennialism. There is a vast difference between historic or covenant premillennialism which has the correct view of the Church and dispensational premillennialism which teaches that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel!

Where do you get this parenthesis teaching. God knew from eternity past He would establish the church. He just didn't fully reveal it to the Old Testament Prophets. Instead He showed them beyond the church. Daniel God showed the Tribulation, Ezekiel the Tribulation and the Kingdom, the same to Isaiah and Zechariah. The long term prophecy He gave them has yet to be fulfilled for Israel, it will be literally, because He literally fulfilled the first parts of their prophecy. A messiah came just as Daniel, Isaiah and others prophesied. He didn't come as a mystical being, nor as a spiirt but as the God-man, with two distinct nature. There was no Parenthesis in God's plan. He always had a plan for man's redemption by means of Christ efficacious work on the Cross. He always had a plan to Rapture the Church prior to the Tribulation and He had a plan for the Tribulation and he revealed it through out the Old Testament and shows how it will be in Revelation 6-19. He always had a plan for Christ to reign 1000 years upon the earth and the Old Testament tells of that Kingdom. No Parenthesis, no failure to have it planned always in God's plan and it will occur, because He said it will. He fulfilled the coming of Christ literally He will fulfill the balance of the Prophecies to Israel literally. It is just too bad with your hatred for Darby you can't see God's plan by seeing Old Testament Prophecy to be fulfilled for Israel just as God promised them.

 

[DHK]

From what Spurgeon says Darby is a heretic so I could care less about him. However, I have shown repeatedly quoting dispensational scholars that Darby is the father of pre-trib-dispensationalism and that he claims new revelation in developing that doctrine. You may not like it but that is the truth.

His claim to "new revelation" has as much veracity to it as our current claim to the "new revelation" given to you to denounce him as a heretic. Both are just as fallacious.
You have a fetish with him. If we count the number of times you have used his name of pronouns referring to his name in a thread like this one they no doubt number more than "Jesus Christ" or than "God."

 

[OldRegular]

No the scripture you presented I have shown to be pre-tribulational in view, you call it a snow job, false doctrine etc. Yet every scripture you presented I showed you the pre-trib view or the fulfillment, you refuse to believe what I wrote. You have presented no conclusive scripture which shows no rapture, no tribulation and no 1000 year reign. You interpret them one way I interpret them another.

The verse I presented to start this thread was one that I read that day and it jumped out to me. The Holy Spirit saying here is the promise to keep us for the wrath, and the wrath according to Revelation is the Tribulation all the events of Revelation 6-19. I had never seen it nor really thought of it that way. No commentary told this nothing Iread except the passage itself and that is the interpretation I saw it as, no Darby, no Henry not one scholar did I consult. It just jumped out at me as hey here we have the promise of not going through the Tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 1: 10 “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

By our salvation Christ has delivered us for the Tribulation (wrath) to come.

That is Pathetic. I present a passage of Scripture when interpreted literally {the method supposedly preferred by Darbyites} can only be mean a general resurrection and general judgment of all the dead.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Yet you say:

No the scripture you presented I have shown to be pre-tribulational in view, you call it a snow job, false doctrine etc.

Now please tell me when the Darbyites have adopted a doctrine that the unsaved are raised prior to the so-called-GrrreeaaT-Tribulation.

The TRUTH is that NO SCRIPTURE shows a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church. If one did it would have been presented 10 years ago!

 

[OldRegular]

Thanks for that article Old Regular!... Now I know!

The four views are historicist, preterist, futurist, and idealist.

I hold to ALL views!... I am a partial preterist, ahmillennialist, historical, idealist or spiritual and futurist!

II Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

To me embracing all views is essential in studying Revelation. Each view has validity and not one view alone inconclusive devoid of all the others. To understand one view is tunnel vision but to understand all and put them in their proper place is to see the big picture of Gods redemption alone... Brother Glen

That pretty much fits what I told Brother Hank earlier:

Brother Hank,

Adding to the above.

I take an idealist approach to the interpretation of the Book of Revelation, that is, I see the book as setting forth eternal truths concerning the conflict between good and evil and that the imagery of the book has no particular relation to any historical events. I would add a caveat in that I see certain historical events that clearly, at least in my mind, picture this struggle between good and evil and perhaps show the hand of GOD in some outcomes. The destruction of the Spanish Armada for example! I can also see Communism as perhaps a manifestation of the beast of Revelation.

I believe the idealist approach is perhaps more consistent with the idea of seven fold repeating cycles in Revelation than any other approach.

A little history and certainly the idealist approach includes the time until Jesus Christ returns!

 

[Darrell C]

revmwc



I do not think scripture indicates this.It does indicate Jesus as first fruits leading captivity captive....

17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from death
psalm68

17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from death





Then we see 1st Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."



He did so while they lived at the time of Noah.....by The Spirit.....in and through Noah- as in the parts I enlarged.....






no....they just taught us from the OT scriptures what Jesus has done

What does the "by which" refer to?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

That is Pathetic. I present a passage of Scripture when interpreted literally {the method supposedly preferred by Darbyites} can only be mean a general resurrection and general judgment of all the dead.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Yet you say: Now please tell me when the Darbyites have adopted a doctrine that the unsaved are raised prior to the so-called-GrrreeaaT-Tribulation.

The TRUTH is that NO SCRIPTURE shows a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church. If one did it would have been presented 10 years ago!

It was revealed almost 2,000 years ago. Being a mystery it cannot refer to the general resurrection which itself is a limited revelation in the Old Testament. That demands the Rapture is not that which was revealed in the Old Testament.

By the way, the word we get the word rapture can be found in the Catholic translation. I would think that would be common knowledge.

While it is balancing of Scripture that show the snatching away will be prior to the Tribulation, the fact remains the catching away is a first century doctrine and it cannot be found in the resurrections described in Revelation.

If we take the popular Catholic tradition, as you do, then we can equally question that Zechariah 14 depicts Christ's Second Coming, because, after all...the text doesn't say it is.


God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

It was revealed almost 2,000 years ago. Being a mystery it cannot refer to the general resurrection which itself is a limited revelation in the Old Testament. That demands the Rapture is not that which was revealed in the Old Testament

How can the Old Testament reveal the rapture of the Church when the Church is a mystery according to Darbyites? But Darbyites will make any asinine statement if they think it proves the unprovable! The Roman Catholics are no more slavish to the pope than you people are to the false doctrine of Darby!

 

[Darrell C]

Brother Hank'

As I said earlier I believe there are seven parallel sections in Revelation and, therefore, seven pictures of the return of Jesus Christ. Some are more dramatic and easily seen than others:

The first such picture in Revelation occurs at the opening of the sixth seal [Revelation 6:12-17]. The terror of those under judgment, the complete despair of those who have rejected the grace of God, as manifested in the sacrificial death of His Son Jesus Christ, will be held in common by all classes of man and is best described by the words: hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? As terrible as is the picture presented the reality of God’s final judgment will be far worse than language can convey.

The second such picture of the end of the age occurs at the sound of the seventh trumpet [Revelation 11:15-19] when it is announced: The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ. Voices ring out, the praise of all the host of heaven, the great multitude, the four beasts, and the twenty four elders. The coming of the Kingdom brings the resurrection to life, the Blessed Hope, of those who are redeemed to God by the blood of the Lamb. However, those who have rejected the grace of God, who have trampled underfoot the Blood of the Covenant, who have loved darkness rather than light will learn that death is no escape. Theirs is the resurrection to judgment, the ultimate woe, the second death, the lake of fire.

The third such picture of the end of the age is shown by the dual harvest [Revelation 14:14-20]. The first harvest, by the Son of Man, is that of ones who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who have persevered, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. These will sing the new song, the song of redemption. These will enter into the joy of the Lord. Their redemption is complete. The second harvest is in stark contrast to the first. A command is given and the vine with its fully ripe grapes is reaped and cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God. With the thrust of the sharp sickle the wrath of God is visited on all unrighteousness.

The fourth such picture of the end of the age occurs when the seventh vial, the final cup of the wrath of God is poured out [Revelation 16:17-21. The voice of God comes from the throne within the temple saying It is done. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found signifying the final shaking of the heavens and the earth [Hebrews 12:26, 27]. The great harlot, Babylon, is judged.

The fifth picture of the end of the age [Revelation 19:1-10] contrasts the marriage of the Lamb and His Bride, the glory Church, the New Jerusalem, with the judgment of that great harlot, Babylon, the counterfeit church and the bride of the antichrist

The sixth picture of the end of the age [Revelation 19:11-21] shows the return of the One who is Faithful and True, the Word of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to execute judgment upon the beast, the false prophet, and those who bear the mark of the beast in the battle of that great day of God Almighty [Revelation 16:14] at a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon [Revelation 16:16].

The seventh picture [Revelation 20: 7-10] of the end of the age presents a second account of the ‘battle’ of Armageddon. Satan is released to gather the ‘nations’ to battle against the camp of the saints, the beloved city. The nations, referred to as Gog and Magog , encompass the camp of the Saints, the beloved city. Here, as in Ezekiel 38 & 39, Gog and Magog represent the opposition of the world to the people of God. It is very likely, as some expositors believe, that the account in Ezekiel is prophetic of the battle of Armageddon. The camp of the saints and the the beloved city are the people of God, the Church, who are alive on earth. The battle is not a physical battle between the Church and the forces of Satan. Neither is it a physical battle between the returning Saviour with His army and Satan with his army. Rather this is a spiritual battle in which the outcome is certain: fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. We see pictured here the final defeat and judgment of Satan, he is cast into the lake of fire.

The message of the Book of Revelation: The Saints are vindicated and victorious through Jesus Christ our LORD!

Second picture: the problem with making this the Return of Christ is it places His Return before the Tribulation ends. The seventh Trumpet judgement can be distinguished from the Seal and Vial judgements unless we suppose John forgot how to describe the prior judgements.

Third picture: I guess Catholic Doctrine see the Lord ordered about by an Angel, and collecting His own by killing them, or worse...missing some who are then killed in the second harvest...


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+14:13&version=KJV


Fourth picture: While we get closer to, not a picture of, but the Return which is so clearly presented in Revelation 19, the obvious question we have for the Catholic view is...what about the period during the Seventh Trumpet Judgement, which they have just told us depicts Christ's Return? lol

That would explain when those that died in faith died.

And I will just throw in that its hard to reconcile their proposal this is the last shaking when Christ has not returned and numerous prophecies, including those made by Christ, show that His enemies will physically die and their corpses fed upon in the Supper of. The Great God.

Fifth picture: amazing. They have, as they have in each of these "pictures," imposed the Lord's return despite the fact that none of them depict Christ's Return. And they only say it's the end of the Age. Where is the Return?

Just not there.

Sixth picture: finally, something we can agree with the Catholic view. This is the Scriptural presentation of the Return of Christ.

Unfortunately, they go on to...

...seventh picture, which is, according to them a reiteration of the previous Return.

What is interesting is they acknowledge Satan is released but they will not acknowledge the thousand years he was bound and Christ's return prior to that binding.

Simply amazing.

The reference to Ezekiel 38-39 is a nice touch. It "might" correspond...lol.

It does. It corresponds to the only reference to Christ's Return in Revelation 19, and it is no coincidence, but the harmony of Biblical Prophecy, that we see the phys8cal destruction of the enemies of God who are left for carrion.

This corresponds to Christ's teaching here...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+17:30-37&version=KJV


The Catholic method of interpretation, which is where these "pictures" come from, leave much to be desired.

Anyone who can read Revelation and not see the differences in the events is simply not paying attention to what all Prophecy is teaching us.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

How can the Old Testament reveal the rapture of the Church when the Church is a mystery according to Darbyites? But Darbyites will make any asinine statement if they think it proves the unprovable! The Roman Catholics are no more slavish to the pope than you people are to the false doctrine of Darby!

Apparently you did not understand...that's the point.

The resurrection of the dead was revealed in the Old Testament, but in a limited manner. Despite that we see in the Gospels it was well enough known that several reference it. The Sadducees, who are equivalents to Rapture deniers, denied the resurrection of the dead.

Now here is the point: Paul revealed the Rapture as a mystery which negates the possibility Paul was referring to the resurrection referred to in Daniel 12:1-2.

Secondly, you will find nowhere that I say the Old Testament revealed the Rapture. That is the opposite of the point itself.

Your infatuation with Darby is almost as humorous as your pseudocontempt for Catholicism, which is without question the source of your doctrine.

Only by study of the Word of God will you ever come to actually possess a faith that is actually yours. Until such time as you do so, you are merely adopting the faith of other Catholics.


God bless.

 

[DHK]

Premillennialism is not dispensationalism. Charles Spurgeon was a premillennialist but I have already presented some of his remarks about Darby's heretical beliefs on the atonement. Following are some additional thoughts by Spurgeon:

I have responded to them as much as possible.

Spurgeon's End Times Theology

C.H. Spurgeon
CHARLES SPURGEON CONTEMPORARY OF JOHN NELSON DARBY
John Darby's ideas formed the foundation upon which the pre-tribulation rapture (Left Behind) doctrine stands. The following quote is taken from a post that Charles Spurgeon's grandson, Tommie Spurgean, posted on his own website in order to awaken Darby's followers to the fact that the Baptist Movement had initially rejected Darby's proposals, and today it has chosen to honor Darby instead of Spurgeon when it comes to eschatology.

CHARLES SPURGEON AND END-TIME PROPHECY

“Charles Spurgeon believed that the Baptist faith was exactly the same as the early Church under the Apostles and he taught that. Yet today if he was applying for a job as a pastor in a Baptist church and he told them how he believed about the Rapture and the Resurrection he would be rejected. His scriptural understanding and messages are praised by many and they often place him at the top of the list for their spiritual leadership. But there are things in Prophecy that he taught that the Baptist would reject as heresy. One of the reasons many do not know what CH Spurgeon taught on Prophecy was the fact that he never preached in direct messages such as a sermon on the rapture or end times. But we know what he believed by what he included in his messages of salvation and enlightenment because he often included his belief in prophecy in the message itself rather than it being the main topic of his sermon.

What most believers do not know is that Charles Spurgeon believed that the Rapture and Resurrection would happen at the same time following the Great Tribulation. That the judgement seat of Christ would happen and Satan would be bond for a thousand years He also believed that Jesus would then literally set up his kingdom on earth and rule for a thousand years. He believed that a second resurrection would occur after the thousand-year reign for the unrighteous dead. This would be followed by the great white throne judgement of God and then there would be a new heaven and a new earth.

During Spurgeon’s day there was another preacher that people today believe was a knowledgeable man on prophecy. His name was John Darby. It is amazing to me that the Baptist organization would accept his teachings over Charles Spurgeon. Charles did not care for the teachings of Darby and if he were alive today would be preaching in direct opposition to him. He did it back then and he would continue to do it today. What I am referring to is the belief that the Rapture and Resurrection would occur before the tribulation. How could anyone believe that Darby had a greater understanding than what CH Spurgeon did? Spurgeon was not ignorant when it came to prophetic teachings and took them just as serious as his teachings on grace because he wanted his listeners to know the truth. However his main focus was on the cross of Christ and Salvation because he felt that it was more important than prophecy, however he did include prophecy teachings in his preaching and teaching. He did not reject end-time prophecy or think that it was wrong to be enlightened by it.”

An article at www.spurgeon.org/mainpage.html had the following to say:[/quote]
Obviously little Tommie, the son of the “Great Spurgeon” could not see how anyone could even dare to question his FATHER’s beliefs!! How dare he! C.H. was an idol, like “god.”
Note again:
How could anyone believe that Darby had a greater understanding than what CH Spurgeon did.
And yet Tommie had just finished writing that Spurgeon rarely spoke on prophecy. He didn’t study prophecy much. He wasn’t a student of prophecy, unlike Darby who gave much of his life to it.
Please, let us knock Spurgeon off this idol-like pedestal.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Pastor of the Metropolitan Tabernacle and contemporary of Darby published criticism of Darby and Brethrenism. His main criticism was that Darby and the Plymouth Brethren rejected the vicarious purpose of Christ's obedience as well as imputed righteousness. He viewed these of such importance and so central to the gospel that it led him to this statement about the rest of their belief. "With the deadly heresies entertained and taught by the Plymouth Brethren, in relation to some of the most momentous of all the doctrines of the gospel, and to which I have adverted at some length, I feel assured that my readers will not be surprised at any other views, however unscriptural and pernicious they may be, which the Darbyites have embraced and zealously seek to propagate"

Since we don’t know exactly what they are we are not in a position to judge one over the other.
Quite frankly I reject Calvinism also.

“Another thing that Charles Spurgeon rejected about John Darby was his teachings on dispensationalism. This belief teaches that the Jews are under a different covenant than the one we have to day and do not need to be saved through the preaching of the Gospel the same as the Gentiles.

If this is true about Darby it is not true about Dispensationalism today.

He believed that when Jesus came back he would rule over them in Jerusalem but they would be saved by their own covenant with him. At that time dispensationalism taught that Israel would not go back to the land of Palestine until Jesus returned at Armageddon. Charles Spurgeon disagreed with their teaching and said that he believed that the Jews would return to the land of Palestine before Jesus came back. He was right and John Darby was wrong. Charles also taught that the Jews had to be saved through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that many would be born-again before Jesus came back. Clarence Larkin came along after Darby and improved upon his theory of dispensationalism by including that 144,000 Jews would be saved during the tribulation but the rest would not accept Jesus until he comes back. Charles Spurgeon would have rejected this as well.

All of the above is based on the timing of the resurrection of the righteous (rapture).
This is not as a big a deal as you make it out to be. They are both pre-mil. Even today there are pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib positions, but all are pre-mill. All were pre-mill dating back to the Waldenses to the Apostles. And that is dispensationalism. It existed far before Darby. There is only a slight difference as to when the “rapture” takes place.

This issue may not seem to be important to some but it is very important to me and those that are trying to reach the Jews with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What I would like to point out is that most churches believe John Darby and Clarence Larkin over Charles Spurgeon.

SPURGEON IS NOT GOD!!
Perhaps there is good reason to believe people like Larkin over Spurgeon in some areas.

 

[DHK]

Charles Spurgeon in our day couldn’t be licensed or perform any duties in any church such as Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of God, Methodist, etc because he didn’t believe that the Rapture would occur before the Tribulation.

An overstatement.

There were many more great men of God in his day and before that did not accept that and wouldn’t accept it to this very day. Why does it matter? There are over 13million Jews in the world today that need to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The modern day teaching of pretribulation rapture and the teachings on dispensationalism prevent a very large number of Christians from even praying that the Jews will be saved.

This is grave error, if not total ignorance.

It is interesting to note that many evangelicals are supportive to Israel because they want to be blessed by doing so, but they are only interested in blessing Israel in material ways, not spiritual. Their salvation is very important and Satan has thrown up a smoke screen to keep Christians from seeking God for Israel’s salvation. The Scriptures teach us that it is our responsibility to reach Israel with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

He is showing ignorance of dispensationalism and in doing so making libelous statements.
We pray for the salvation of the Jews/Israel, even as Paul did in Romans 9 and 10.
In this “dispensation” they must come to Christ the same way we must come to Christ.

The churches in America are so dug into dispensation teachings that they would not allow Spurgeon or any other great man of God to pastor or preach in any of their churches. I am amazed at that. In fact many churches will run off members that do not agree with it or peer-pressure a person until they are afraid of not being accepted unless they do. We do not realize how anti-Semitic this is.

Or how ignorant this man is who wrote this. He doesn’t know what he is speaking about.

John Hagee will tell you that to preach the Gospel to the Jews is a waste of time.

Let’s get this straight.
John Hagee is no more a representative of Baptist beliefs than OR is a representative of my Baptist beliefs.
I would hate for either one to represent me as a Baptist.

Yet if you were to tell people such as Jews for Jesus or other Jews that have been born again you would soon realize how ridiculous this is. Their souls are as important as any Gentile and we should realize it.

And I believe most of us would agree with that. I personally have witnessed to many Jews.

It took me a long time to realize why people like John Hagee and others could be so hard when it comes to the Jews and salvation? Now I realize that they are defending what they were taught in Bible College being taught dispensation teachings. They don’t want to lose their license. By the way John Hagee does have a great concern when it comes to protecting the lives of the Jews and I appreciate what he is doing with defending Israel. But it is very important that while we protect the sinner that we provide the Gospel for their souls as well and not teach against it. The teaching of pre-tribulation Rapture leaves the Jews out of the Rapture because most will be saved during the Tribulation period itself and the Bible is clear on this. But they will have to receive the Gospel from us, the Gentiles. There are only two Resurrections in Scripture; one when Jesus comes back and the other at the end of the millenium for the unrighteous dead. The Rapture and Resurrection occur at the same time in the same moment. If we miss the Rapture there will be no eternal life because we won’t be changed. To leave the Jews out of this and to say that God prefers us over them is anti-Semitic and a sin.

This man is as confused as Hagee is confused.
Most dispensationalists would not agree with how he portrays Hagee. If that is what Hagee believes I certainly don’t agree with it. It is not what most dispensationalists believe.
Thus what he has written is a mischaracterization of dispensationalism.

 

[Iconoclast]

What does the "by which" refer to?


God bless.

hello Darrel C
The Holy Spirit.........when those people were alive in the preflood days of Noah. Now they are in torment awaiting the White Throne Judgement:thumbs:


Then we see 1st Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."