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Featured Did Paul teach the Pre-Trib view?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, Apr 27, 2015.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are obviously ignorant of the "futurist" view of the Book of Revelation!
     
    #41 OldRegular, Apr 28, 2015
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Why is everyone who holds a view opposite of you ignorant, or guilty of false teaching or what adjective you come up with? What says your is correct? Surely not scripture because you have your view and we have ours and neither can rally be proven right or wrong. For as many inks or pinks or hokestra you come up with we can support ours with bible teachers too.
     
    #42 revmwc, Apr 28, 2015
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    revmwc;.

    No....those in the graves denied the preaching of the Spirit by messengers in their own time....
     
    #43 Iconoclast, Apr 28, 2015
  4. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 4:9-10, 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    We see Jesus descended into paradise of which we know from His teaching was separated by a Great gulf and those in torments could talk to those in Paradise, we see this in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

    Then we see 1st Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

    Peter says Christ preached unto the spirits in prison, that would be those in torments, wouhldn't it? They all heard everyone who was in the grave at that time heard Him. Didn't they or are Paul and Peter wrong?

    When did this occur, Paul said when He descended, Therefore "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice", that hour came did it not and those in the grave heard his voice, didn't they according to Peter? Then he carried the souls in Paradise to Heaven, how do we know this we see Paul again, 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." Paul made it very clear that when we die we go to Heaven to be with Christ. The souls in prison stayed in prison until He returns to the earth and completes His mission of the Kingdom.
     
    #44 revmwc, Apr 29, 2015
  5. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So you don't believe when a person dies their soul goes to either torments or Heaven? Those in torments are waiting for their final judgment and Revelation 20 states clearly 5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Clearly there is a Kingdom that will last 1000 years, and the first resurrection is completed with the Tribulation saints. The rest that is those who are in torments, the unbeliever will await judgment till the 1000 years is complete. Revelation is very clear on this.
    Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    Satan is loosed after the 1000 years. We see what happens after Christ has been reigning on an earth without a satanic influence.
    8 "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

    He finds enough folks who have been born during the Kingdom age to revolt against Christ and come to battle against Jesus capital city Jerusalem, the beloved city. Then satan is finally cast into the Lake of fire, then we see the rest of the dead that is as verse 5 stated "dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished,"

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Thus here we see the fulfillment of Hebrews 9:27b., "but after this the judgment:" this would be all those who died without having trusted in Christ from Cain to all who rebelled at the end of the 1000 years. Scripture is very clear there is not a general resurrection of saved and lost, but a First Resurrection and the final resurrection that of the unsaved.
     
    #45 revmwc, Apr 29, 2015
  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Thanks OR.

    HankD
     
    #46 HankD, Apr 29, 2015
  7. Calypsis4

    Calypsis4 Member

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    I've been teaching that view for about forty years. But you are free to enlighten me if you wish.

    P.S. you still have not answered the details concerning Luke 21:35-36. Why?
     
    #47 Calypsis4, Apr 29, 2015
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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    revmwc

    I do not think scripture indicates this.It does indicate Jesus as first fruits leading captivity captive....

    17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

    18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

    19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

    20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from death
    psalm68

    17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

    18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

    19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

    20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from death





    Then we see 1st Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

    He did so while they lived at the time of Noah.....by The Spirit.....in and through Noah- as in the parts I enlarged.....




    no....they just taught us from the OT scriptures what Jesus has done
     
    #48 Iconoclast, Apr 29, 2015
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  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    If after 40 years of teaching error you have a desire to broaden your understanding I suggest you buy a the book Revelation, Four Views by Steve Gregg. This book presents an even-handed treatment of the four major interpretations of the book of Revelation. The four views are historicist, preterist, futurist, and idealist.

    You do understand of course that though the false doctrine of Darby has many adherents among evangelicals in this country it is a very small minority in the Christian community. It is not even accepted in the place where it was conceived out of whole cloth, that is made up, as someone from that region recently noted on BB!
     
    #49 OldRegular, Apr 29, 2015
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Brother Hank'

    As I said earlier I believe there are seven parallel sections in Revelation and, therefore, seven pictures of the return of Jesus Christ. Some are more dramatic and easily seen than others:

    The first such picture in Revelation occurs at the opening of the sixth seal [Revelation 6:12-17]. The terror of those under judgment, the complete despair of those who have rejected the grace of God, as manifested in the sacrificial death of His Son Jesus Christ, will be held in common by all classes of man and is best described by the words: hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? As terrible as is the picture presented the reality of God’s final judgment will be far worse than language can convey.

    The second such picture of the end of the age occurs at the sound of the seventh trumpet [Revelation 11:15-19] when it is announced: The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ. Voices ring out, the praise of all the host of heaven, the great multitude, the four beasts, and the twenty four elders. The coming of the Kingdom brings the resurrection to life, the Blessed Hope, of those who are redeemed to God by the blood of the Lamb. However, those who have rejected the grace of God, who have trampled underfoot the Blood of the Covenant, who have loved darkness rather than light will learn that death is no escape. Theirs is the resurrection to judgment, the ultimate woe, the second death, the lake of fire.

    The third such picture of the end of the age is shown by the dual harvest [Revelation 14:14-20]. The first harvest, by the Son of Man, is that of ones who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who have persevered, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. These will sing the new song, the song of redemption. These will enter into the joy of the Lord. Their redemption is complete. The second harvest is in stark contrast to the first. A command is given and the vine with its fully ripe grapes is reaped and cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God. With the thrust of the sharp sickle the wrath of God is visited on all unrighteousness.

    The fourth such picture of the end of the age occurs when the seventh vial, the final cup of the wrath of God is poured out [Revelation 16:17-21. The voice of God comes from the throne within the temple saying It is done. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found signifying the final shaking of the heavens and the earth [Hebrews 12:26, 27]. The great harlot, Babylon, is judged.

    The fifth picture of the end of the age [Revelation 19:1-10] contrasts the marriage of the Lamb and His Bride, the glory Church, the New Jerusalem, with the judgment of that great harlot, Babylon, the counterfeit church and the bride of the antichrist

    The sixth picture of the end of the age [Revelation 19:11-21] shows the return of the One who is Faithful and True, the Word of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to execute judgment upon the beast, the false prophet, and those who bear the mark of the beast in the battle of that great day of God Almighty [Revelation 16:14] at a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon [Revelation 16:16].

    The seventh picture [Revelation 20: 7-10] of the end of the age presents a second account of the ‘battle’ of Armageddon. Satan is released to gather the ‘nations’ to battle against the camp of the saints, the beloved city. The nations, referred to as Gog and Magog , encompass the camp of the Saints, the beloved city. Here, as in Ezekiel 38 & 39, Gog and Magog represent the opposition of the world to the people of God. It is very likely, as some expositors believe, that the account in Ezekiel is prophetic of the battle of Armageddon. The camp of the saints and the the beloved city are the people of God, the Church, who are alive on earth. The battle is not a physical battle between the Church and the forces of Satan. Neither is it a physical battle between the returning Saviour with His army and Satan with his army. Rather this is a spiritual battle in which the outcome is certain: fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. We see pictured here the final defeat and judgment of Satan, he is cast into the lake of fire.

    The message of the Book of Revelation: The Saints are vindicated and victorious through Jesus Christ our LORD!
     
    #50 OldRegular, Apr 29, 2015
  11. Calypsis4

    Calypsis4 Member

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    So says you, not the Holy Spirit. Does Gregg do any better than Rushdoony, David Chilton, Gary Demar, or the covenant theology promoters who are almost as bad in their understanding of scripture as the Jehovah's Witnesses? I have possessed and read all of them and their sense of timing as it concerns prophecy is awful. So as for Gregg, if he agrees with them then I'll pass. The scriptures are sufficient.

    I have considered them all many times. Only the futurist position on Revelation is correct and the proof is quite simple: none of the prophecies as it concerns the plagues, trumpets, seals, mark of the beast, world government, as it concerns the entire world predicted by John in A.D. 96 have occurred on our planet as of yet.

    Just forget Darby. I've never read him. The fact is that you did not deal squarely with the statements of the church fathers that we quoted for your benefit in the first place.

    AND...........thank you very much for deliberately ignoring Luke 21:35-36, yet again! It is increasingly clear to me and to anyone who is paying attention to the details of this discussion that you cannot handle the clear and plain meaning of Jesus prophecy there.
     
    #51 Calypsis4, Apr 29, 2015
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    So what does "by which" refer to?


    God bless.
     
    #52 Darrell C, Apr 29, 2015
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    First picture: does the Lord slay those spoken of here...

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+6:9-11&version=KJV

    ...?

    It is clear that this...

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+7:1-3&version=KJV

    ...shows the Tribulation continues.


    God bless.
     
    #53 Darrell C, Apr 29, 2015
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    So you like many others on this BB are a devotee of the false doctrines invented and promulgated by John Nelson Darby of the Cult of the Plymouth Brethern!

    From Spurgeon's The Sword and the Trowel {http://www.spurgeon.org/s_and_t/dbreth.htm}

     
    #54 OldRegular, Apr 29, 2015
  15. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    You continue to say dipensationalism is a false doctrine prove it just by scripture without skewing it with your deep seeded opinion. Scripture alone no commentary show where it says there is no catching away of the bride, show where it says there is no tribulation, show where is says there is no 1000 year reign. Give scripture which clearly states it without giving your biased opinion of scripture.

    Because if it is false doctrine then scripture will prove it without commentary. For instance the Saducee's taught there was no resurrection we can by scripture show Jesus came forth from the Grave and we can by Revelation 20 show there are going to be Resurrections which come.

    False doctrine says you can be saved by works, scripture states we are saved by Christ work on the cross, no commentary required. So prove Disationalism is a false doctrine by clear concise scripture that clearly states it is wrong without adding commentary.
     
    #55 revmwc, Apr 29, 2015
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Well at least not only does his doctrine trace back to the first century teachings of the New Testament...he has been providing it to you.

    Now where is your doctrine traced back to? Fourtjh? Fifth? Exactly when did the Catholic Church perfect her popish position?

    And what do you present continually? What men say it means. And demand adherence to it in a very popish manner. Glad you don't have the power your group once had.


    God bless.
     
    #56 Darrell C, Apr 29, 2015
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  17. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I see nothing in that article referring to dispensationalism please high light that portion. He talks about Darby teaching something about non-atoning concerning Christ death on the cross.
     
    #57 revmwc, Apr 29, 2015
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Here is some history of Premillennialism that I found written by the well known scholar, Clarence Larkin, an American Baptist pastor and Bible teacher of the late 1800's
    Certainly it didn't originate with Darby.
     
    #58 DHK, Apr 29, 2015
  19. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    The Paulicians, Albigeneses, Waldenses, and other sects, bore testimony to the Premillennial return of the Lord.

    Many see these as the Fathers of the Baptist faith. While they held some doctrines that baptist don't many of their doctrines were baptist in nature and teaching. They looked for the return of Christ for His Bride before the tribulation.
     
    #59 revmwc, Apr 29, 2015
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I have presented Scripture showing a general resurrection of all the dead and a general judgment. You ignore it. Yet you are unable to present a single passage of scripture showing the so-called-pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church! Furthermore you like most on this BB put the teachings of JOHN NELSON DARBY ahead of Scripture, the early Baptist fathers, and Charles Spurgeon who shows in the above quote that Darby's belief on the atonement was cultic to say the least!
     
    #60 OldRegular, Apr 29, 2015
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