Discussion of Predestination

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I have to go to an Association meeting in the morning around 3 hours away so I have to go to bed. Then on Sunday, I got a call tonight to baptize a man in his 70's so I am excited about that also for he is a good man. I hate to leave now that I am in but must get some sleep.

Praise the Lord for that man's salvation. Bob there is one thing that I do not ever take lightly and that is the need for our churches to take the gospel to a lost and dying world. I may believe in predestination, but I pray that the Lord would save the elect and elect some more!

 

[saturneptune]

Brother Bob,
Thanks be to God for your ministry. Get some rest. Work comes early tomorrow, so see you soon.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Where's Rodney King when we need him? Can't we all just love one another? :love2:

 

[npetreley]

Where's Rodney King when we need him? Can't we all just love one another? :love2:

This place is more like Stephen King. Can't we all just horribly mutilate one another?

Actually, I read somewhere that Stephen King is a Christian.

 

[rsr]

This thread can discuss the original topic or it can be closed. It's up to you.

rsr

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

We love to live on little pieces of God's word and not live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

There is many that cannot understand predestination with God not wanted that anyone perish, but all to come to the knowledge of truth. So they change what all men are and not trust in God.

If God wants to use those He forknew that would not believe or believe for His purpopse then so be it.

To me God has given to us our faith and what to believe by His word, but it is our choice in what we do with it.

God has predestined that believers be saved, by His word, That whosoever believes in Jesus shall be saved, but this faith without deeds is dead.

I know it wasn't my belief that saved me, for that is not what the law requires of me. My sin requires death.


So I am saved by grace, not by my works, for it is what Jesus has done that saved
me.

We will our life for Jesus, no longer to save ourselve. We live for Jesus so others may see our deeds and praise our Father in heaven
1 John 2:10
Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble

1 Corinthians 10:
31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

1 Corinthians 8:
9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.

 

[Blammo]

This is where you must determine to be consistant with what is revealed in Scripture or to go with an emotive response that judges God on the merit of human reason. Consider the following Scriptures and tell me how you would respond to your concerns in light of what these passages say?

Prov. 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Rev. 17:17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Rom. 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.

John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
[Why could they not believe?]
40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”

Duet. 2:30 But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day.

Josh. 11:20 For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

These verses would only be a problem for me, if I did not believe in a sovereign God, and if I did not believe in the prescience of God. I believe that whether one is "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" or not, God is able to, without violating ones "free moral agency", use them to fulfil His word. If someone already has it in their heart to do evil, and God hardens their heart, or puts it in their mind to go in a certain direction, God is not causing them to go against their nature, He is using them according to what they already are. James 1:13 says "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:".

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

We love to live on little pieces of God's word and not live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Are not all the pieces of God's Word true? Do those pieces ever contradict each other? I do not believe that they do. So ours is an attempt to reconcile what could be viewed as noticeably different expressions of how God relates to humanity. It is my belief that there are not two truths but one. I would say it is fair to assume that those who appose my view feel justified in what they believe. When you have two opposing views drawn from the same source there must be a hermeneutical or an interpretive issue.

There is many that cannot understand predestination with God not wanted that anyone perish, but all to come to the knowledge of truth. So they change what all men are and not trust in God.

You prove my point. You have a interpretive choice that you go with, but your choice brings other pieces of Scripture into direct conflict with your interpretation.

If God wants to use those He forknew that would not believe or believe for His purpopse then so be it.

And yet you can have a great tolerance for the high sovereignty of God despite what you just previously said.

To me God has given to us our faith and what to believe by His word, but it is our choice in what we do with it.

Here again another contradiction in your view, because you say God has given to us our faith but it is our choice in what we do with it. If God gives faith as you suggest, then how do you chose to have faith?

God has predestined that believers be saved, by His word, That whosoever believes in Jesus shall be saved, but this faith without deeds is dead.

I know it wasn't my belief that saved me, for that is not what the law requires of me. My sin requires death.


So I am saved by grace, not by my works, for it is what Jesus has done that saved me.

So you claim that God predestined a method of salvation but not to whom that salvation would apply.

We will our life for Jesus, no longer to save ourselve. We live for Jesus so others may see our deeds and praise our Father in heaven.

1 John 2:10
Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble

1 Corinthians 10:
31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

These verses would only be a problem for me, if I did not believe in a sovereign God, and if I did not believe in the prescience of God. I believe that whether one is "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" or not, God is able to, without violating ones "free moral agency", use them to fulfil His word. If someone already has it in their heart to do evil, and God hardens their heart, or puts it in their mind to go in a certain direction, God is not causing them to go against their nature, He is using them according to what they already are. James 1:13 says "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:".

What is a temptation? A temptation is a solicitation to do evil. If God were to do that he would use an evil as the lure to entice you. God is not evil and does not use evil directly. However, what if in God's sovereignty he knew that by preaching the Word to someone who is not inclined to follow the Word it would push him away even further. That would not be tempting someone to do evil but preaching the Word in order to drive them away.

You must not read into the Scripture something that is not there. It does not say that God in his infinite wisdom found a hard case and worked him into an overall strategy. It says he hardened their hearts. He cause them to be obstinate. I would argue that like the rat in the maze God can do this without violating human free moral agency and at the same time he can perfectly maneuver and influence the process without ever directly violating his holy nature as well which even more important to emphasize.

 

[Blammo]

What is a temptation? A temptation is a solicitation to do evil. If God were to do that he would use an evil as the lure to entice you. God is not evil and does not use evil directly. However, what if in God's sovereignty he knew that by preaching the Word to someone who is not inclined to follow the Word it would push him away even further. That would not be tempting someone to do evil but preaching the Word in order to drive them away.

You must not read into the Scripture something that is not there. It does not say that God in his infinite wisdom found a hard case and worked him into an overall strategy. It says he hardened their hearts. He cause them to be obstinate. I would argue that like the rat in the maze God can do this without violating human free moral agency and at the same time he can perfectly maneuver and influence the process without ever directly violating his holy nature as well which even more important to emphasize.

Psalms 81:11-13 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels. Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!

Proverbs 1:28-31 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

Isaiah 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Romans 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Your turn.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Psalms 81:11-13 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels. Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!

This does not represent a problem. I have never denied the free moral agency of man. In this case it does not say that God caused their hearts to be hard but that they had lust in their heart and God gave them over to their lust. God does not take joy in seeing his own people sin and violate his holy name. I am not sure why you listed this passage.

Proverbs 1:28-31 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

Again, this passage is not a problem. Maybe you would care to comment on what you intend to demonstrate here because if your point is that God can give someone over to their wicked nature that is true. That does not mean that he cannot provide someone with the necessary stimuli in order to exacerbate the circumstance as in the case of Duet. and Josh.

Isaiah 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

God is righteous and holy. Again there is not a problem here.

Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

The free moral agency of man is not a matter of asking if man is free to choose but what is man able to choose? Man is clearly able to freely choose to sin against God. No Reformed theologian will argue otherwise. Man is not free to choose to quit sinning. There is not a problem with this passage either.

Romans 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Your turn.

God is gracious and merciful. That is why the Reformed view is known as the doctrines of grace. I believe in the grace of God. If it were not for the gracious nature of God no one would be saved.

Blammo, perhaps you can add to these passages or make a point because I just do not see the problem that maybe you see with the passages for my position.

 

[Blammo]

Blammo, perhaps you can add to these passages or make a point because I just do not see the problem that maybe you see with the passages for my position.

:laugh: :thumbs: Well, nevermind then. I guess we're done. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

:laugh: :thumbs: Well, nevermind then. I guess we're done. :smilewinkgrin:

I believe the Bible, it sounds like you do to. :thumbs:

 

[psalms109:31]

Our own understanding

Are not all the pieces of God's Word true? Do those pieces ever contradict each other? I do not believe that they do. So ours is an attempt to reconcile what could be viewed as noticeably different expressions of how God relates to humanity. It is my belief that there are not two truths but one. I would say it is fair to assume that those who appose my view feel justified in what they believe. When you have two opposing views drawn from the same source there must be a hermeneutical or an interpretive issue.



You prove my point. You have a interpretive choice that you go with, but your choice brings other pieces of Scripture into direct conflict with your interpretation.



And yet you can have a great tolerance for the high sovereignty of God despite what you just previously said.



Here again another contradiction in your view, because you say God has given to us our faith but it is our choice in what we do with it. If God gives faith as you suggest, then how do you chose to have faith?



So you claim that God predestined a method of salvation but not to whom that salvation would apply.

We are not to reconcile scripture into our own understanding, but trust in the Lord.

You may not understand how this works, but God does want all men to be saved and come to te knowledge ogf the truth.

We must trust in God and not our own undersatanding

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

We are not to reconcile scripture into our own understanding, but trust in the Lord.

You may not understand how this works, but God does want all men to be saved and come to te knowledge ogf the truth.

We must trust in God and not our own undersatanding

So if as you suggest God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, do they?

If they don't why don't they? If the answer is because they choose not to, then does God still not realize what he ultimately desired?

Also, does not your view ultimately present God as an unsuccessful universalist?

Do you not attribute any credit to God for being able to accomplish his will, because evidently your view places God in a position where he is entirely dependant on man?

One last thing, since there have been those now who have received Christ, this is a hypothetical question. But when Christ came into the world and died on the cross and rose from the dead, was there a possibility than no one would respond to the gospel?

I understand that God has forknowledge according to your view but if the offer of salvation is truly open does that not require the possibility that no one would have responded to the message?

 

[Plain Old Bill]

We use words like Foreknowledge and Predestination like God is controlled by time. Time was invented for mankind to give us some frame of reference. God is not trapped in any dimension of time be it past,present, or future.I wonder if it is possible for us to think in terms of there being no time dimension and how that would effect our theology.

 

[psalms109:31]

God's will

God's will is for us to believe in Jesus and be saved, or not to believe and be condemned.

God has set before us life and death, so choose life so you may live.

God did not incline our hearts to believe as dort says, but places before us life and death, and He desires for us to choose life

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

God's will is for us to believe in Jesus and be saved, or not to believe and be condemned.

God has set before us life and death, so choose life so you may live.

God did not incline our hearts to believe as dort says, but places before us life and death, and He desires for us to choose life

You will not find me arguing against the need to preach the gospel. I have believed what you preach. I preach the gospel constantly. I understand the need of preaching the gospel.

The issue here is not that we must believe the gospel, but that in order to believe the gospel their is a work that God must do through the Holy Spirit. The point here is not that man must believe the gospel, the point here is understanding this, apart from the work of God through the Holy Spirit no one can be saved.

I understand your simple approach to God. In your view you cannot manage to understand how both that the Lord is good and that God can allow for evil to accomplish a purpose. God is not the author of evil. God does not violate the free moral agency of human beings. But never fail to understand that God is perfect and his will is perfect and he accomplishes his will.

If you are at peace with holding a view riddled with inconsistencies then by all means you are free to choose to believe that if you would like. However, please do not interfere with a discussion that seeks to find reasons for believing. Too long has the church just said this is the way it is, take it or leave it. NO, the truth is not unattainable. Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life. He said you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

Just because God's ways are not our ways does not mean that God has not revealed his will to his children. His children hear his voice and he calls them by name.

 

[psalms109:31]

Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit that does the work and gives us the ability to make the choice is in the words of Jesus, for it is His words that is Spirit and life.

God is soverign as in He places before us the consequences for our choices and what He says' goes. Believe in His Son and be saved and not and be condemned.

God places our blood in our own hands.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

The Holy Spirit that does the work and gives us the ability to make the choice is in the words of Jesus, for it is His words that is Spirit and life.

God is sovereign as in He places before us the consequences for our choices and what He says' goes. Believe in His Son and be saved and not and be condemned.

God places our blood in our own hands.

Then we are in agreement. As long as you recognize the need of God in the work of bringing repentance. As long as you recognize the proper role of the Holy Spirit in bringing conviction, then I will give you no grief over that, but that is not the underlying assumption that general atonement assumes. Again you are welcome to hold to a system riddled with inconsistency, however, I am glad to see that you clearly affirm the sovereignty of God in salvation. And the fact that the guilt of sin falls upon man does not remove God from his sovereign role in determining that there would be those whom he would without question redeem and that he has chosen and elected them based solely on his gracious nature and not due to merit or respect to their good deeds. Free moral agency is a factor but that agency very much works within a framework put in place by a sovereign omni-benevolent creator.