Discussion of Predestination

[saturneptune]

Then we are in agreement. As long as you recognize the need of God in the work of bringing repentance. As long as you recognize the proper role of the Holy Spirit in bringing conviction, then I will give you no grief over that, but that is not the underlying assumption that general atonement assumes. Again you are welcome to hold to a system riddled with inconsistency, however, I am glad to see that you clearly affirm the sovereignty of God in salvation. And the fact that the guilt of sin falls upon man does not remove God from his sovereign role in determining that there would be those whom he would without question redeem and that he has chosen and elected them based solely on his gracious nature and not due to merit or respect to their good deeds. Free moral agency is a factor but that agency very much works within a framework put in place by a sovereign omni-benevolent creator.

You either believe in God's sovereignty or you dont. Yet you mix in free will of man on your terms. What was that sentence you said about holding to a system riddled with inconsistency?

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

You either believe in God's sovereignty or you dont. Yet you mix in free will of man on your terms. What was that sentence you said about holding to a system riddled with inconsistency?

There is no conflict with holding that God is sovereign and that man has free moral agency. By man having free moral agency man is liable for his own moral failure. I have stated constantly that it is not a matter of man's freedom to choose, it is the limit of what man has in terms of his power to choose. Man cannot decide not to sin. Read Romans 7. The is a bondage of the will of man that he is helpless to be true to. The spirit of man is dead to the will of God. While I appreciate the attempt you have made to contribute to this discussion, it appears that your attempt is nothing more than a shot in the dark. Your point is not valid.

 

[saturneptune]

My point is quite valid. I fully understand that there is nothing good in man, and that a work of the Holy Spirit is needed for salvation. On the contrary, you seem to let free will sneak in ever so subtly. I have read Romans 7 many, many times. While you claim to believe in the sovereignty of God and believe man is powerless not to sin (which is true), you constantly and consistantly bring up free will. Free will to do what? Your long posts are not consistant and therefore your points are not valid, just semi arminian.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

My point is quite valid. I fully understand that there is nothing good in man, and that a work of the Holy Spirit is needed for salvation. On the contrary, you seem to let free will sneak in ever so subtly. I have read Romans 7 many, many times. While you claim to believe in the sovereignty of God and believe man is powerless not to sin (which is true), you constantly and consistantly bring up free will. Free will to do what? Your long posts are not consistant and therefore your points are not valid, just semi arminian.

Care to back up that claim?

If I hold to double predestination, then how on earth do you make such an asinine statement?

Calvinism does not deny the free moral agency of man. Calvinism does not teach that God coerces the will of man. Look through the London Confession or any other Reformed Baptist Confession and show me where God coerces the will of man in order to accomplish his sovereign purpose.

Really nept. you are grasping here pal.

 

[psalms109:31]

Consequences

You either believe in God's sovereignty or you dont. Yet you mix in free will of man on your terms. What was that sentence you said about holding to a system riddled with inconsistency?

The missunderstanding of words really make people not understanding scripture.

Sovreignty means God makes the rules and the consequences for breaking them. That doesn't mean He makes the choices for us. Whosever believes shall be saved and whosoever doesl not shall be condemned.

It is our choice, and we will pay the consequenses for our choice.

Man always wants to blame God. It was the snake you created, it was the women you gave, now it is because God didn't chose me.

It is your fault not God's. God chose you when you heard the message and believers our the messegers.

If someone doesn't hear than man is going against God's will by not telling the world the hope we have.

If you do not chose God when you heard the message it, it is not because God didn't choose but you chose not to believe.

We have Good News for the world.

Do not be deceived by God being sovereign mean that you have no choice.

The young rich ruler was drawn to Jesus by the Father, chosen by Jesus and yet walked away.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Do not be deceived, believe God not men.

 

[saturneptune]

I will let you analyze the confessions of faith. The Bible is fine for me thank you. I never said I believe in double predestination. I said you are trying to inject free will of man in your theology of salvation and at the same time declare the sovereignty of God. If you mean by free will I have the choice of whether to go to work or not that is one thing, but you keep bringing up free will in the context of predestination.

I am not going to even comment about the adjective you used in the last post except to say that it is consistant with your character of name calling.

 

[psalms109:31]

truth

My point is quite valid. I fully understand that there is nothing good in man, and that a work of the Holy Spirit is needed for salvation. On the contrary, you seem to let free will sneak in ever so subtly. I have read Romans 7 many, many times. While you claim to believe in the sovereignty of God and believe man is powerless not to sin (which is true), you constantly and consistantly bring up free will. Free will to do what? Your long posts are not consistant and therefore your points are not valid, just semi arminian.

The scripture teaches there is nothing good in the flesh, where does it say the whole being of man is corrupt, that by the work of the Holy Spirit go through the flesh right to the part of man that want to do good but evil is waging war against it, and give it a choice.

God is more powerful than we make Him out to be.

The world was missing the Holy Spirit and men had no hope and when Jesus was lifted up He sent the Holy Spirit back out into the world, now the Holy Spirit is right at the door of every man asking to come in and God made us who believe the messenger

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Sovreignty means God makes the rules and the consequences for breaking them. That doesn't mean He makes the choices for us.

This is where you are clearly suffering from a syllogism. In your mind if God predestines some to believe and others not to believe then you conclude that God made the choice for them. A syllogism is when you make an assumption in your conclusion that may not necessarily be true. When it rains the road gets wet. The road is wet therefore it rained. The road may be wet due to a broken water main. There is an institution that God established which accounts for the morality by which he will judge mankind. What is encouraging is that you have it within your thinking to account for the biblical truth of predestination not of a method but of a people.

Sovreignty means God makes the rules and the consequences for breaking them.

I would agree with your definition of sovereignty. God makes the rules and the consequences for breaking them. And it is within this system that man will be judged.

If you have pity on man then don't give him a false sense of security. Do not just preach of the love of God, tell him about the eternal place of punishment. Tell him that if he does not repent from his sin and receive Jesus Christ into his heart he will forever spend an eternity in a place of torment. Invite him to believe and receive Jesus as savior.

I will be satisfied that those who believe do so under the sovereignty of God. But ultimately I will give God all the glory in the process and do not wish to keep anyone from receiving the good news of Jesus Christ. I will pray with Spurgeon, "Lord save the elect and elect some more."raying:

 

[saturneptune]

Romans 1, 3:10, and Isaiah 64:6 for starters. Evil wages a war in the believer. Evil owns the unsaved person, so there is nothing to fight about. War is waged in the believer between a quickened spirit and the flesh nature still in us. Romans 7 and 8 describe this.

 

[psalms109:31]

Romans 1, 3:10, and Isaiah 64:6 for starters. Evil wages a war in the believer. Evil owns the unsaved person, so there is nothing to fight about. War is waged in the believer between a quickened spirit and the flesh nature still in us. Romans 7 and 8 describe this.

We all have that problem believers and non believers.

We have a war waging against us, but it doesn't stop us from seeking the help God offers us. It is true we didn't seek the help, but God seeked us to give us the hope.

When we accept the Holy Spirit and open the door. He will come in and change our live's

Our hope will be in Jesus, never in ourselves.

The Holy spirit is just right outside asking us to open the door, we are no longer depraved because He is right at the door.

We are messenger of a great hope.

 

[psalms109:31]

This is where you are clearly suffering from a syllogism. In your mind if God predestines some to believe and others not to believe then you conclude that God made the choice for them. A syllogism is when you make an assumption in your conclusion that may not necessarily be true. When it rains the road gets wet. The road is wet therefore it rained. The road may be wet due to a broken water main. There is an institution that God established which accounts for the morality by which he will judge mankind. What is encouraging is that you have it within your thinking to account for the biblical truth of predestination not of a method but of a people.



I would agree with your definition of sovereignty. God makes the rules and the consequences for breaking them. And it is within this system that man will be judged.

If you have pity on man then don't give him a false sense of security. Do not just preach of the love of God, tell him about the eternal place of punishment. Tell him that if he does not repent from his sin and receive Jesus Christ into his heart he will forever spend an eternity in a place of torment. Invite him to believe and receive Jesus as savior.

I will be satisfied that those who believe do so under the sovereignty of God. But ultimately I will give God all the glory in the process and do not wish to keep anyone from receiving the good news of Jesus Christ. I will pray with Spurgeon, "Lord save the elect and elect some more."raying:

Whosoever believes in me shall(is predestined) to be saved and whosever does not shall( is predestined) to be condemned

 

[saturneptune]

This is where you are clearly suffering from a syllogism. In your mind if God predestines some to believe and others not to believe then you conclude that God made the choice for them. A syllogism is when you make an assumption in your conclusion that may not necessarily be true. When it rains the road gets wet. The road is wet therefore it rained. The road may be wet due to a broken water main. There is an institution that God established which accounts for the morality by which he will judge mankind. What is encouraging is that you have it within your thinking to account for the biblical truth of predestination not of a method but of a people.



I would agree with your definition of sovereignty. God makes the rules and the consequences for breaking them. And it is within this system that man will be judged.

If you have pity on man then don't give him a false sense of security. Do not just preach of the love of God, tell him about the eternal place of punishment. Tell him that if he does not repent from his sin and receive Jesus Christ into his heart he will forever spend an eternity in a place of torment. Invite him to believe and receive Jesus as savior.

I will be satisfied that those who believe do so under the sovereignty of God. But ultimately I will give God all the glory in the process and do not wish to keep anyone from receiving the good news of Jesus Christ. I will pray with Spurgeon, "Lord save the elect and elect some more."raying:

syllogism (Greek: συλλογισμός — "conclusion", "inference"), more correctly a categorical syllogism, is a kind of logical argument in which one proposition (the conclusion) is inferred from two others (the premises) of a certain form

 

[saturneptune]

Why dont you use words that the average layman can understand? Once the meaning is known, the concepts are quite simple.

 

[Jarthur001]

You either believe in God's sovereignty or you dont. Yet you mix in free will of man on your terms. What was that sentence you said about holding to a system riddled with inconsistency?

Saturn,

Believe it or not, I may be with you on this one. The key word is "free". I think it is better said that man has a will, but it is bound. To the unsaved man the choice is free. Yet later we can see how God has worked to bring about our salvation.

If man had a freewill, and God did not elect, salvation would be a more random product of nature, based on where you are born and the environment you live in. We all would agree that all men do not have the same opportunities to hear the gospel. Either God is in control though election, or chaos brings about election by nature. If God is behind the choosing, then those that He chooses to have the understanding of God, would have the choice to choose after it is given to them, while this action would keep in place the binds of others will. Although this is a choice my the person, it really is not freewill. All men do have a will, yet not a freewill, for if you know not of the true God, then that choice of God is not on the table and tis bound to the choice you have.

The choice of God comes only after man knows of God and gains understanding and believes. If a man hears the gospel and believes the 1st time he goes to church it is a call to him by God to come and a choice by him to take Gods gift. It is a choice made by him, but is it freewill, if God lead him to that church on the right night with a message that was mean for him to hear, when he had planned on going to a ball game for weeks, but did not go, because the game was rained out?

So….is God in control? If so, man does not have free choice.

Or…is life just chaos and by chance only. If this is the case, election is a random product of nature.

There is no middle ground.


In Christ...James

 

[npetreley]

Or…is life just khaos and by chance only.

I think you mean chaos. Khaos was the evil organization that fought Control, the agency that employed Maxwell Smart and agent 99.

 

[saturneptune]

Wow, I am going to faint. On the serious side, even after we as elect are given the nature of God, do we really have the choice to say no? Absolutely not. This is irresistable grace to me.

 

[saturneptune]

I think you mean chaos. Khaos was the evil organization that fought Control, the agency that employed Maxwell Smart and agent 99.

sorry about that chief :laugh:

 

[Jarthur001]

I think you mean chaos. Khaos was the evil organization that fought Control, the agency that employed Maxwell Smart and agent 99.

HaHa..well you know me. I got it right on the top...but the 2nd time I used it...Khaos over took my mind, because I didn't wear my 345 Control jacket.

 

[saturneptune]

HaHa..well you know me. I got it right on the top...but the 2nd time I used it...Khaos over took my mind, because I didn't wear my 345 Control jacket.

Ive got a feeling James doesnt look much like agent 99. (I mean when the show came out). :laugh:

 

[Jarthur001]

Wow, I am going to faint. On the serious side, even after we as elect are given the nature of God, do we really have the choice to say no? Absolutely not. This is irresistable grace to me.

Irresistable grace is easy to see. If man ever sees God as He really is, He will believe. For more on this, read each time Man came close to God.

18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."

2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Now we all do not have a great story like this. But, if man sees God in this light, grace is irresistable. The fear of the Lord, is the beginning of wisdom.