Dispensationalists: Why is This Version of Israel THE One of Prophecy?

[HeirofSalvation]

Just because Israel goes back to the sacrificial system does not mean that God endorses it. That is a strawman argument that no one is making. (More false representations by cals). Israel, not having accepted Yeshua, will go back to the sacrificial system until they do.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
I was amazed to learn as a lifelong Dispy....from non-dispys...that we are assuming that God endorses and accepts Israel's future sacrifices...This was a novel notion which has never even crossed my mind, nor that of anyone who taught me. I always differentiated between "descriptive" and "prescriptive" statements....but apparently, no dispensationalist is permitted to do so. We apologize for failing to own up to believing something we have (to my knowledge) never claimed to believe.

 

[mandym]

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
I was amazed to learn as a lifelong Dispy....from non-dispys...that we are assuming that God endorses and accepts Israel's future sacrifices...I always differentiated between "descriptive" and "prescriptive" statements....but apparently, no dispensationalist is permitted to do so. We apologize for failing to own up to believing something we have (to my knowledge) never claimed to believe.

Yep, just on example that cals have not a clue what they are talking about.

 

[thomas15]

... As far as the biblical covenants go, I base much of my biblical theology and redemptive history on them. So I call myself covenantal, but it needs to be qualified for some.

Not to labor the point but have you considered the history of theological systems over the last 2000 years? At times the Diety of Christ was the big question, then the doctrine of the Trinity. Salvation by grace thru faith (1500 years later) the doctrine of the church, speaking in toungues, liberal (social gospel) theology and so forth.

My point is that eschatology was not really considered until the 19th century. No one during the reformation challanged covenant theology because that wasn't the question of the day. I will submit to you that the rise of dispensationalism was due partly at least to the increased and widespread reading and study of the Bible and expository preaching which is somewhat of a new thing.

It is amusing to me that those who espouse, loudly on this forum the modern preterists movement fail to comprehend it as just that - a modern movement. But that doesn't stop them from bashing the dispies with the claim that their's is a "new" theological system. If the Bible teaches it , new/old, doesn't matter.

 

[kyredneck]

No, and this is how they will be saved when the abomination that causes desolation takes place half way through Jacobs Trouble......

Again, happened already, to 'that generation':

“But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.” Lu 21:20-23
[the corresponding passages in Mt & Mk reads ' the abomination of desolation' in lieu of 'armies']

see:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63301

 

[InTheLight]

http://www.templeinstitute.org/about.htm

They are preparing as we speak. What aren't you buying?

This is a great argument. I would counter by saying that Jews have been desiring to rebuild the temple since 70 AD. However, with the nation of Israel established they are now closer than ever and only the Muslims control of the actual site of the temple, now the Dome of the Rock mosque is hindering them.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Too many are intentionally blinding themselves to things like this

The last place appointed by G-d for this purpose was the Temple in Jerusalem, but the Temple has been destroyed and a mosque has been erected in the place where it stood. Until G-d provides us with another place, we cannot offer sacrifices. There was at one time an opinion that in the absence of an assigned place, we could offer sacrifices anywhere. Based on that opinion, certain communities made their own sacrificial places. However, the majority ultimately ruled against this practice, and all sacrifice ceased.


Orthodox Jews believe that when the messiah comes, a place will be provided for sacrificial purposes.

[Could the "anti-Christ" confuse them into believing he is that very person? hmmmmmm?]

Do Jews want to resume sacrifices?
Orthodox Jews do. There are several places in our daily prayer services where we pray for the restoration of the Temple and the resumption of its rituals, including the rituals of sacrifice. The Orthodox Yom Kippur service includes a lengthy recollection of the Temple service, mourns its loss and longs for its restoration. Other movements of Judaism have removed these portions from the liturgy.
http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm

This is just about the same basic response available from what I can tell to be any semi-reliable source on Orthodox Judaism...If they ever regain control of the temple....(They are a square-block or so away from doing that very thing...)They WOULD resume their sacrifices.

If Orthodox National Jews will NEVER resume sacrifices....then it is news to both Orthodox Jews themselves, and to the direction History appears to be taking.
Luther, Calvin, the Catholics, the Puritans....none of them could possibly have even imagined that there would even be a re-established National Israel to begin with....And yet....
History has never even successfully recorded anything like a distinctive people group capable of maintaining so strong a sense of National identity through 1500 + years of complete dispersion throughout the entire world in numerous cultures....Specifically with such cohesion. Civilizations simply don't DO that. They are an historical anomaly like no other.
No one really thinks anything like the "Assyrians" or the "Persians" or the "Philistines" or even the "Egyptians" will ever simply pop up again, and in their ancient cultural and religious form, and yet, the Jews have accomplished that very thing.....One has to almost intentionally blind themselves to the teaching of History and Sociology not to recognize that. It doesn't itself prove the point...But it may help the dissent to forgive us for thinking that it is more probable than they seem to realize.

 

[webdog]

,

"65 million American Evangelical cultists" is why.

[edit to add] Christian Zionism: The new heresy that sways America (2004)

"Estimates as to the size of the movement as a whole vary considerably. While critics like Crowley claim, ?‘At least one out of every 10 Americans is a devotee?’, that is between ?‘25 to 30 million?’, Christian Zionists such as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell claim weekly access to 100 million sympathetic Americans.[4] What ever the true figure, all are agreed, that number that is growing in size and influence.[5] They are led by 80,000 fundamentalist pastors and clergy, their views disseminated by 1,000 local Christian radio stations as well as 100 Christian TV stations.[6] Doug Kreiger lists over 250 pro-Israeli organisations founded in the 1980s alone.[7]"

This becomes more comical with each layer peeled back. The entire world hates them because of American dispy's and those who support them :laugh:,,,,,,,,

 

[kyredneck]

,

This becomes more comical with each layer peeled back. The entire world hates them because of American dispy's and those who support them :laugh:,,,,,,,,

There's something awry with your comprehension abilities here, I've said no such thing. Go back and read it again.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Another Jewish cite explaining this very intent:

http://www.beingjewish.com/unchanged/sacrifices.html

The ultimate plan was for a Holy Temple, where the mobile Sanctuary would find a permanent resting place, so to speak. The Torah explicitly commands that once the Holy Temple is built no sacrifices at all may be brought anywhere else. And that is irrevocable Law. Once the Holy Temple was dedicated and in operation, it was forbidden for Israelites to bring sacrifices anywhere else in the world.


Once the Holy Temple was built, we were no longer permitted to bring sacrifices anywhere else.

And when the Messiah comes, [possibly the anti-Christ? {my edit}] the Holy Temple will be rebuilt, and once again we will bring sacrifices on the Holy Altar there, as it says "And the sacrificial offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to Hashem, like in the olden days years ago" (Malachi 3:4).

The same cite continues here:
http://www.beingjewish.com/unchanged/rebuild.html

To be sure, if we had the Holy Temple, we would resume the Holy Service, including the offering of sacrifices. So why don't we rebuild the Holy Temple?

When the Messiah comes, may it be soon, this will be resolved in a peaceful way, to everyone's satisfaction. Don't ask me how. If I knew how, I would be the Messiah.

Rabbi Moshe Shternbuch, in his work, Moadim Uzmanim,(14) in his treatment of the subject, ends off by saying:

And according to what we have explained at length above, there are innumerable reasons why we do not rebuild the Holy Temple or the Altar, nor bring sacrifices today. Nor does the repossession of the Land of Israel change that Law at all. We are unable, and therefore exempt according to the Law, without a doubt, for many reasons, until the Messiah arrives...G-d forbid that anyone should reconsider or doubt this...And I only discussed these matters out of interest in the subject, due to love of the Holy Temple and the Holy Service.
May the Holy One, Blessed is He, pour upon us a spirit of purity from high above, and may we be found worthy of having G-d's Holy Manifestation in our midst when G-d returns the Service to His Sanctuary speedily, and with our own eyes may we merit seeing everything straightened out.

If the Jews have no intention of resuming these sacrifices...please inform them of this fact..

(editted to add)..... Apparently Webdog has found yet one more source describing Jewish intent to accomplish that very thing: http://www.templeinstitute.org/about.htm should we be obnoxious enough to find approximately 1,000 more? Or should these suffice? I think the point is made.

 

[AresMan]

This doesn't answer my question at all. What do you think Paul means when he says that Israel will be blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in?

You guys keep dancing around this verse and the reason is because it clearly shows that there are Gentiles and there is Israel. They are not one and the same. The Jews have been blinded. They will stay blind UNTIL the full number of elect Gentiles has come in. Then they will be un-blinded.

Notice that Paul said that "blindness in part" was on Israel. He spoke previously of the faithful remnant (who obviously were not blind) who were saved "according to the election of grace." Remember, Paul distinguished between "Israel after the flesh" (1 Cor 10:18) and "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16). The "Israel" that is "partially blind" is geopolitical Israel. The part that is blind are the ones who had "eyes that could not see" (Joh 12:40). "Israel" (geopolitical) did not obtain what they sought, but of them "the election" did, and the rest were blinded (Rom 11:7).

So, there was a part of national Israel who were blind until "the fullness of the Gentiles" come in. Does "the fullness of the Gentiles" mean the totality of every Gentile who would be saved, or does it mean the "prominence" of the Gentiles as the vehicle through which God was "provoking Israel to jealousy" be established? I believe the latter.

The "fullness of the Gentiles" was complete when God destroyed the remains of Old Covenant Israel in A.D. 70. The visible manifestation of an obsolete covenant with its types and shadows and Temple worship are gone. They were trampled by pagan Gentiles as a sign of God's judgment against "Israel after the flesh" that rejected their own Messiah. Since then, true Israel are "Jew and Gentile" equal and not under the Law of types and shadows. True Israel are Jew and Gentile found anywhere in the world. True Israel is "the remnant" of Jews that "the God of Sabaoth" had reserved plus the Gentiles of faith who are now "grafted into" the "olive tree" which is Israel (Rom 11:17 c.f. Jer 11:16).

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The Greek word for so does not mean "then." It mean "in this manner." Paul is NOT saying that after the fullness of the Gentiles be come. He is saying that by means of Gentiles being brought in, all "Israel" will be saved. The way all Israel is saved through the New Covenant is that Israel is now the faithful remnant of geopolitical Israel that God has preserved plus the faithful Gentiles "grafted in." God cast away the unfaithful natural branches and rebuilt "Israel" by leaving the remnant and grafting in Gentiles by faith.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit , even so it is now. [unfaithful Jews after the flesh persecuting faithful Jews and Gentiles "born again"]
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Israel after the flesh did not "walk according to this rule;" therefore, geopolitical Israel cannot be "the Israel of God."

The Old Covenant was made with a geopolitical entity. It consisted of faithful and non-faithful members who were circumcised from birth.

The New Covenant is "different" and "better" in that its members comprise only those were are regenerate and receive the "circumcision made without hands."

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

In the New Covenant, there are no "covenant breakers." All members are regenerate. The covenant is not made with a geopolitical entity but with people who will encompass the world. "The house of Israel and the house of Jacob" were divided at the time this prophecy was given; therefore, God used language contemporary with the time of Jeremiah. The two kingdoms were "united" under Roman bondage at the time the New Covenant was ratified.

We know that the New Covenant is a present reality. Jesus said that the New Covenant is "in My blood." The writer to the Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 and says that Jesus "hath made the first old" (Heb 8:13). Paul said that God made him and his companions "able ministers of the new covenant" (2 Cor 3:6). He then referenced, again, the blindness of Jews in "the reading of the Old Covenant."

As I explained above, the "blindness in part" is effectually done way at A.D. 70. Yes, Jews today are still "blind" to the gospel, just as any atheist Gentile is also "blind," but "the fullness of the Gentiles" has come in by the destruction of the Temple and the Old Covenant destroyed. There is no more geopolitical Israel in covenant with God, because that covenant "is done away."

Israel is NOT the church. The church is NOT Jacob.

No, Israel/Jacob and the Church are not the same in the sense that (qualified according to context) they God's people according to two different successive covenants. However, God does not have two distinct peoples with two distinct eternal plans of redemption and two distinct eternal destinies. Also, God has never had a covenant with anyone that prescribes blessings by default based solely on genetics.

It's no wonder there is so much confusion about end times because so many want to mix Jews, Gentiles, and the church into one big pot.

Aside from confusing history, chronology, and covenant details, I would agree, but..

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

How can these verses be any clearer. Are you seriously suggesting that, in the future, there will be a distinction between "Jew" and "Greek" "in Christ"?!

No wonder there is so much confusion about "end times" because people are forced to dismantle the language expressed in Paul's epistles to try to explain how Daniel's continuous 70 weeks were somehow "interrupted," making all the things that were happening at the time of prophecy somehow have to come back to live so that the remaining week can occur.

I'm no scholar, but good hermeneutics demand that we ask WHO is speaking, WHO is being spoken to, and WHY.

Of course!

If God makes a promise to Israel, it is NOT a promise to the church or anyone else.

But, God made the New Covenant "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah," yet there was one nation under bondage to Rome when Jesus was crucified. Paul is clear that we Gentiles are subjects of this New Covenant, and the writer to the Hebrews is clear that the New Covenant is a present reality. The New Covenant is "in My blood," and Paul gave the same Lord's Supper ordinance to Gentile Corinthians that Jesus gave to His Jewish disciples. If you are "in My blood," you are in the New Covenant. Period.

Paul explains in Romans 11 that the faithful Gentiles are "grafted in" to Israel (Rom 11:17 c.f. Jer 11:16). The new Israel of God is the olive tree ("Israel") with "some of the [natural] branches" broken off and faithful Gentiles
grafted in.

And all through the NT, the church is always referred to as the CHURCH. Israel is always referred to as ISRAEL.

Hmm. I think I have explained above how this hard distinction is not necessary. Also, Israel is called "the church in the wilderness." Paul refers to those "who walk according to this rule" that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avail anything in Christ as "the Israel of God."

 

[kyredneck]

....(editted to add)..... Apparently Webdog has found yet one more source describing Jewish intent to accomplish that very thing: http://www.templeinstitute.org/about.htm should we be obnoxious enough to find approximately 1,000 more? Or should these suffice? I think the point is made.

Really folks, there's absolutely nothing new here:

"...six ways in which Christian Zionist theology has been translated into political action: This outline illustrates the correlation between the movements distinctive doctrines and their political agenda.....

5. The Temple : Identifying with Religious Zionism

Dispensational Christian Zionists, in particular, are convinced the Jewish Temple must be rebuilt because, based on their futurist eschatology from Daniel, the anti-Christ must desecrate it just prior to the return of Christ. David Brickner claims that the preparations for rebuilding the Temple began in 1967 with the capture of the Old City of Jerusalem.[66] Lindsey is equally sure that, ‘right now, as you read this, preparations are being made to rebuild the Third Temple.’[67] Contemporary Christian Zionists are working to achieve this.

Promoting the Temple Mount Movement

Randall Price is the leading dispensational expert on the imminent plans to rebuild the Jewish Temple. In his 735 page The Coming Last Days Temple, he provides comprehensive details of all the Jewish organisations involved in attempts to seize the Temple Mount, destroy the Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock, rebuild the Jewish Temple and re-institute Temple worship, priesthood and sacrifices. These include the Temple Institute and Temple Mount Faithful.[68] Gershon Salomon is the controversial figurehead of the movement and founder of The Temple Faithful. Zhava Glaser, of Jews for Jesus, praises Salomon for his courage to talk about ‘the most important subject in the Jewish religion.’Speaking as a guest of the ICEJ, at the Christian Zionist Congress in 1998, Salomon insisted:

‘The mission of the present generation is to liberate the Temple Mount and to remove - I repeat, to remove - the defiling abomination there ... the Jewish people will not be stopped at the gates leading to the Temple Mount ... We will fly our Israeli flag over the Temple Mount, which will be minus its Dome of the Rock and its mosques and will have only our Israeli flag and our Temple. This is what our generation must accomplish.’[69]

In a London Times, interview Salomon insisted that the Islamic shrine must be destroyed: ‘The Israeli Government must do it. We must have a war. There will be many nations against us but God will be our general. I am sure this is a test, that God is expecting us to move the Dome with no fear from other nations. The Messiah will not come by himself; we should bring Him by fighting.’[70] Since 1967 there have been over 100 armed assaults on the Haram Al-Sharif by Jewish militants, often led by rabbis. ‘In no instance has any Israeli Prime Minister or chief rabbi criticized these assaults.’[71]

Facilitating the Temple Building Programme

In order to sustain a fully functioning Temple it is also necessary to identify, train and consecrate priests to serve in the Temple. According to the Book of Numbers, the ashes of a pure unblemished red heifer, itself previously offered by a ritually pure priest, must be mixed with water and sprinkled on both them and the Temple furniture. With the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD the ashes used in the ceremony were lost and the Jews of the Diaspora have therefore been ritually unclean ever since.

In 1998, however, Clyde Lott, a Pentecostal Mississippi rancher, formed Canaan Land Restoration of Israel, Inc. for the purpose of raising livestock suitable for Temple sacrifice.[72] According to Newsweek, in 1997, the first red heifer for 2000 years was born at the Kfar Hassidim kibbutz near Haifa and named ‘Melody’.[73] Unfortunately she eventually grew white hairs on her tail and udder. Undaunted, Chaim Richman, an Orthodox rabbi and Clyde Lott, the Pentecostal cattleman, have teamed up to breed red heifers in the Jordan Valley, in the hope of producing a perfect specimen for sacrifice.[74]

The design and construction work, furnishings and utensils, the training of priests and breeding of sacrifices all require funds and in large measure, like the red heifer, these are being provided by Christian Zionists. According to Grace Halsell, Stanley Goldfoot raises up to $100 million a year for the Jerusalem Temple Foundation through American Christian TV and radio stations and evangelical churches.[75] ‘Jewish longing for the Temple, Christian hopes for the Rapture, and Muslim paranoia about the destruction of the mosques [are being] stirred to an apocalyptic boil.’[76]"

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

 

[TCGreek]

I cringe at stuff like this.

 

[kyredneck]

There's literally millions of Christians nowadays who are gleefully anticipating it.

 

[AresMan]

There's literally millions of Christians nowadays who are gleefully anticipating it.

In other words, they are gleefully anticipating a rapture to take them out of the world followed by untold tribulation for Jews after which many of them will go to hell. They teach that the Christian thing to do is to contribute to arranging the world's scene so that the coming of all this is hastened.

Yup, sounds pretty pro-Israel to me.

 

[thomas15]

In other words, they are gleefully anticipating a rapture to take them out of the world followed by untold tribulation for Jews after which many of them will go to hell. They teach that the Christian thing to do is to contribute to arranging the world's scene so that the coming of all this is hastened.

Yup, sounds pretty pro-Israel to me.

What they teach my friend is that Jesus could return at any moment to remove the saints and that we must be ready at all times, going about the Fathers business, telling Jew and Gentile the good news. No one knows the time or date. That is what they teach and you make yourselves look quite foolish by trying to make the pathetic case that dispies can in some way influence the times and seasons that the Father has planned from the beginning in general and US foreign policy in particular.

 

[kyredneck]

In other words, they are gleefully anticipating a rapture to take them out of the world followed by untold tribulation for Jews after which many of them will go to hell. They teach that the Christian thing to do is to contribute to arranging the world's scene so that the coming of all this is hastened.

Yup, sounds pretty pro-Israel to me.

Excerpt from 'Save a Jew, Save Yourself' (written by Mark Ames, a Jew)

"Ned and about 65 million other fellow American Evangelical cultists love Jews for one simple reason: They hope to bundle every hairy Jewish *** up, air-freight them to the West Bank and East Jerusalem (once those areas have been cleansed of Muslims), and use the Jews as bait to bring upon the Rapture, as kindling in the Apocalypse, the final battle that will bring Jesus back to Earth. None of this can happen until every last Jew is penned into the occupied territories and the Jews won’t get there unless the far-right runs Israel and America. Currently 65 million American cultists are using everything in their power, from prayer to politics, to make this Helter Skelter scenario come true.

Under this Evangelical "end of days" scenario, there’s some good news and some bad news, depending on which cult you belong to.

First, the good news: The Rapture be bery-bery-good to Evangelical Christians. When that day arrives, they all get sucked up to heaven body, clothes, mobile phones and all...... A few years after the Rapture comes the Apocalypse. This is the bad-news part of the Evangelical equation, for some people anyway the part of the buddy flick where the one buddy says to the other, "Sorry friend, it was either you or me."

The funny thing about The American Prophecies is that while Evans quotes extensively from Zechariah, he leaves out the one passage that every Evangelical secretly prays for:

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. (Zechariah 13:8, 9)

In other words, two-thirds of the world’s Jews, now crammed into the dusty West Bank, go to the woodchipper, and the surviving third (or perhaps as few as 144,000, depending on how you read your Bible) gets forcibly converted to Evangelical Christianity. Number nine, number nine...."

 

[AresMan]

What they teach my friend is that Jesus could return at any moment to remove the saints and that we must be ready at all times, going about the Fathers business, telling Jew and Gentile the good news. No one knows the time or date. That is what they teach and you make yourselves look quite foolish by trying to make the pathetic case that dispies can in some way influence the times and seasons that the Father has planned from the beginning in general and US foreign policy in particular.

I am aware that they, like I, teach the immanency of Christ's return. I am talking about the teaching that the Temple will be rebuilt for the 70th week of Daniel to be fulfilled, AND the fact that some argue that Christians must "support" the modern state of Israel in the sense of helping them rebuild the Temple. Naturally, helping modern Israel accomplish things that are criteria for the "Great Tribulation" to occur means, in a sense, hastening the coming of Christ (for the rapture) and the upcoming judgment on millions of Jews.

 

[OldRegular]

In other words, they are gleefully anticipating a rapture to take them out of the world followed by untold tribulation for Jews after which many of them will go to hell. They teach that the Christian thing to do is to contribute to arranging the world's scene so that the coming of all this is hastened.

Yup, sounds pretty pro-Israel to me.

Jesus Christ told us: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [Matthew 16:18]

Why is it these Rapture Ready Dispensationalists want to ignore what Jesus Christ tells us and deem the Church a failure? They have already deemed 5 attempts by God to deal with man a failure and now they want to deem the Church for which jesus Christ died a failure! Unbelievable!

The Church will be here when Jesus Christ returns and brings time as we know it to an end.

 

[percho]

[sigh] I'll repeat some of what AresMan has already posted using another version [ASV] maybe that will help:

6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9

Now read that over slowly ten times, that should do it.

True. So where do the children come from? What and how did God fifty days following the resurrection of Jesus begin to do. Did he begin to do what he said he would do?

Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Who that had been married, just became desolate? What happened to them (her)?
Who was still married to the LORD?

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations,{ἔθνεσιν Gentiles} like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. Hosea 8:8 Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles {ἔθνεσιν nations} as a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure.

Who is the desolate woman and where is she?

What does God say HE will do? Who grants repentance? 2 Tim. 2:24.25 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Did God do that with Paul?

Jeremiah 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the LORD, [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever. V13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD. Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Is Zion, "the church?"

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, {ἐθνῶν nations} to take out of them a people for his name.


These will be the firstfruits of the harvest, the firstfruits of the Spirit Rom. 8:23. Where first comes before a word there will be others that will come later. There is a spring harvest and there will be a fall harvest.

 

[kyredneck]

In other words, they are gleefully anticipating a rapture to take them out of the world followed by untold tribulation for Jews after which many of them will go to hell. They teach that the Christian thing to do is to contribute to arranging the world's scene so that the coming of all this is hastened.

Yup, sounds pretty pro-Israel to me.

More, from 'The Dark Side of Dispensationalism' by Gary DeMar


"....the period of “Jacob’s trouble” when Israel will experience its “greatest bloodbath,” to use Charles Ryrie’s words.

Modern-day Jews are bothered by the potential for harm that such a position might bring with it. Their fear is justified in light of recent history. Dwight Wilson, author of Armageddon Now!, convincingly demonstrates that dispensational premillennialism advocated a “hands off” policy regarding Nazi persecutions of Jews during World War II. Since, according to dispensational views regarding Bible prophecy, “the Gentile nations are permitted to afflict Israel in chastisement for her national sins” this side of the rapture, there is little that can be done to oppose it.[2] Wilson writes that “It is regrettable that this view allowed premillennialists to expect the phenomenon of ‘anti-Semitism’ and tolerate it matter-of-factly.”[3]

Wilson describes “premillenarian views” opposing “anti-Semitism” in the mid-1930s and thereafter as “ambivalent.”[5] There was little moral outcry “among the premillenarians . . . against the persecution, since they had been expecting it.”[6] He continues:

Another comment regarding the general European anti-Semitism depicted these developments as part of the on-going plan of God for the nation; they were “Foregleams of Israel’s Tribulation.” Premillennialists were anticipating the Great Tribulation, “the time of Jacob’s trouble.” Therefore, they predicted, “The next scene in Israel’s history may be summed up in three words: purification through tribulation.” It was clear that although this purification was part of the curse, God did not intend that Christians should participate in it. Clear, also, was the implication that He did intend for the Germans to participate in it (in spite of the fact that it would bring them punishment)—and that any moral outcry against Germany would have been in opposition to God’s will. In such a fatalistic system, to oppose Hitler was to oppose God.[7]

Other dispensational writers placed “part of the blame for anti-Semitism on the Jews: ‘The Jew is the world’s archtroubler. Most of the Revolutions of Continental Europe were fostered by Jews.’ The Jews—especially the German Jews—were responsible for the great depression.”[8]

Wilson maintains that it was the premillennial view of a predicted Jewish persecution prior to the Second Coming that led to a “hands off” policy when it came to speaking out against virulent “anti-Semitism.” “For the premillenarian, the massacre of Jewry expedited his blessed hope. Certainly he did not rejoice over the Nazi holocaust, he just fatalistically observed it as a ‘sign of the times.’”[9] Wilson offers this summary:

Pleas from Europe for assistance for Jewish refugees fell on deaf ears, and “Hands Off” meant no helping hand. So in spite of being theologically more pro-Jewish than any other Christian group, the premillenarians also were apathetic—because of a residual anti-Semitism, because persecution was prophetically expected, because it would encourage immigration to Palestine, because it seemed the beginning of the Great Tribulation, and because it was a wonderful sign of the imminent blessed hope.[10]

Dispensationalism sees an inevitable great persecution yet to come where “two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish” during the great tribulation.[11]"