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Do Baptists believe in the Trinity?

Dust

New Member
If Jesus is not truly God, why did he accept worship?

Joh 9:38 He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
Joh 9:39 Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind."


Why did Jesus not rebuke the man, as the angel did here...

Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Notice what the angel said: worship God which is singular. He did not say "worship God and Jesus", nor did he say "worship Gods"

Jesus was either Truly God, who made the Heaven and Earth, uncreated and eternal, and Lord of all, or He was a blasphemer that took worship, when Scripture clearly says...


"'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"

There are many Greek words translated into the one English word meaning "worship." Only one truly means how we take it to mean as "religious worship."

John 9:38 is proskyneo, which means to kiss the hand of, like a dog licking his master's hand. It is akin to kneeling before a king or bowing before a master. It is a sign of respect but not religious worshipping.

1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
1) to the Jewish high priests
2) to God
3) to Christ
4) to heavenly beings
5) to demons

Vine's definition:

"to make obeisance, do reverence to" (from pros, "towards," and kuneo, "to kiss"), is the most frequent word rendered "to worship." It is used of an act of homage or reverence "

The word for religious worship is threskeia. It is translated religion three times and worshipping one time.

Vine's definition:
"signifies 'religion' in its external aspect, 'religious worship,' especially the ceremonial service of 'religion'"

When it was referred to as worshipping (Col 2:18), it was the condemnation of the worshipping of angels.

The angel told John to kneel before God. As Christ is superior to us and the angels, the Father has said of him, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth."

You kneel before your king. Christ is our King. But all religious worship should be directed toward the Father.
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
From Louisville Kentucky?

That's the one.

If so why are you not more knowledgeable about proper methods of research and study? Especially when it comes to History or review of Documents.

Who says I'm not? Believe me, you have no idea what I know or don't know.

You might be interested to know that one of the first things I discuss in both my history classes and philosophy class are "proper methods of research and study", as you put it.

Perhaps, if you treated me with a little more respect and did not constantly look for opportunities to attack me and impugn my intelligence, I might be a little more inclined to discuss things a little more in depth with you.

Something else you might want to keep in mind is that internet message boards are informal meeting places where not everyone has the same education, experience, or interests, so I learned a long time ago not to try to talk over people's heads or to bore them with academic details. Just because I teach doesn't mean I walk around all day talking like Frasier Crane.

But then, I guess not having anything to prove to you means I don't have to.
 

Havensdad

New Member
There are many Greek words translated into the one English word meaning "worship." Only one truly means how we take it to mean as "religious worship."

John 9:38 is proskyneo, which means to kiss the hand of, like a dog licking his master's hand. It is akin to kneeling before a king or bowing before a master. It is a sign of respect but not religious worshipping.

1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
1) to the Jewish high priests
2) to God
3) to Christ
4) to heavenly beings
5) to demons

Vine's definition:

"to make obeisance, do reverence to" (from pros, "towards," and kuneo, "to kiss"), is the most frequent word rendered "to worship." It is used of an act of homage or reverence "

The word for religious worship is threskeia. It is translated religion three times and worshipping one time.

Vine's definition:
"signifies 'religion' in its external aspect, 'religious worship,' especially the ceremonial service of 'religion'"

When it was referred to as worshipping (Col 2:18), it was the condemnation of the worshipping of angels.

The angel told John to kneel before God. As Christ is superior to us and the angels, the Father has said of him, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth."

You kneel before your king. Christ is our King. But all religious worship should be directed toward the Father.

The verse above, which says you will ONLY worship God, is the word "Proskuneo."

In other words, Jesus himself says that you are only to "proskuneo" God. No one else.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Father is the supreme being who sustains all things through His power or spirit (Heb 11:3). Because He cannot look upon man, angels manifest His will throughout scripture; hence why they are called messengers. The reason the Father cannot look upon man is because all flesh shall die before Him (Ex 33:20).

"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen." 1 Tim 6:16

No man has ever seen God except the Son of Man who sits at the right hand of power (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12).

The Son is the perfect manifestation of God in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16), much like the angels in their celestial bodies, fulfilling the Law without sin, sacrificed himself as both a cleansing for his flesh and the payment for his bride (bride price as custom of the Israelites). And so, Christ who had not sinned was not contained by death and rose on the third day being saved and thus, providing the way to salvation.

He is the promised one to Eve, to Abraham, and to David. It is through marriage on the last day, that those who are found worthy by the Judgement of Christ (those who are presented as a chaste virgin) shall marry and become spiritually one flesh with Christ, being saved through his salvation and being justified through his justification. Christ has the authority to judge whom he shall marry and whom he shall not.

Christ and his bride (the saints) shall conquer the world (the inheritance of Abraham) and establish a Kingdom (the throne of David) based in Jerusalem and shall reign for a thousand years. After which, Christ shall present the perfect Kingdom to the Father and reunite man with God.

Today, he acts as a mediator giving intercession for the saints. Paul's letter to the Hebrews explicates manifestation, intercession, etc.

The Holy Spirit is the "separate" power of God used for specific purposes which is usually unnatural. He gives this power at will to his servants. There is "one spirit" or power of God, but this is a section of His power which he uses for whatever purpose. Christ was given full use of this power at his baptism and then went into the wilderness to be tested. God speaks to the apostles and prophets through the Holy Spirit. The apostles also see visions while in the spirit. Elijah, Elisha, Samson, Christ, etc. all were given incredible power through this spirit.

Modalism is heresy. The Holy Ghost is a person and is referred to as a person by Christ (John 14:6; 16:7). He (the person Holy Ghost) can be grieved (Eph 4:30). He is eternal (Hebrews 9:14).
 

Johnv

New Member
Modalism is heresy. The Holy Ghost is a person and is referred to as a person by Christ (John 14:6; 16:7). He (the person Holy Ghost) can be grieved (Eph 4:30). He is eternal (Hebrews 9:14).
For those keeping score, Modalism is the belief that the members of the Trinity are not three separate persons but modes or forms of God. This is, as Revmitchell noted, considered to be heretical to mainline Christian theology, which generally accepts Trinitarianism as a core scriptural doctrine.

(note: someone asked me in a pm what modalism was, so I thought it prudent to post the answer here)
 

Dust

New Member
The verse above, which says you will ONLY worship God, is the word "Proskuneo."

In other words, Jesus himself says that you are only to "proskuneo" God. No one else.

Actually it says "to him only shall you serve." If you are serving and obeying Christ, you are serving God, but that does not mean that Christ is God. It is the same as obeying the voice of an angel, such as the angel speaking to Moses. Serving or obeying the angel is obeying God because the angel is conveying the will of God. However, your religious worship should be towards the Most High, not to an angel.

In other words, "revere the Deity and serve only him."

If a wife serves her husband in the way God demands, she is serving God. If a slave serves his master in the way God demands, he is serving God.
 

Johnv

New Member
If your claim is that Jesus wasn't part of the Godhead, how do you explain the Holy Spirit? Do you claim that the Holy Spirit is likewise not part of the Godhead?
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Father is the supreme being who sustains all things through His power or spirit (Heb 11:3). Because He cannot look upon man, angels manifest His will throughout scripture; hence why they are called messengers. The reason the Father cannot look upon man is because all flesh shall die before Him (Ex 33:20).

"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen." 1 Tim 6:16

No man has ever seen God except the Son of Man who sits at the right hand of power (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12).

These Scriptures speak of man seeing God - but there are no Scriptures supporting the belief that God cannot look down on man. As a matter of fact, there is a whole lot of Scriptures saying that He does in fact look down on man. Here are two:

Psalm 14:2 "The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God."

Psalm 53:2 "God looks down from heaven
on the children of man

to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God."
 

Dust

New Member
For those keeping score, Modalism is the belief that the members of the Trinity are not three separate persons but modes or forms of God. This is, as Revmitchell noted, considered to be heretical to mainline Christian theology, which generally accepts Trinitarianism as a core scriptural doctrine.

(note: someone asked me in a pm what modalism was, so I thought it prudent to post the answer here)

That would be incorrect to label our beliefs as such. We believe in two persons, the Father and the Son. They are not coequal and they are not coeternal. The Father is the ONLY one with immortality as it is clearly stated to Timothy. In the hierarchy of the Heavens, the Father is the Most High and Christ has been placed second, sitting at his right hand. The angels are below Christ, but all of them are one in spirit. There is one spirit emmenating from the Father that sustains them all.

Christ manifests God, first in sinful flesh and now as a quickening spirit.
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That would be incorrect to label our beliefs as such. We believe in two persons, the Father and the Son. They are not coequal and they are not coeternal. The Father is the ONLY one with immortality as it is clearly stated to Timothy. In the hierarchy of the Heavens, the Father is the Most High and Christ has been placed second, sitting at his right hand. The angels are below Christ, but all of them are one in spirit. There is one spirit emmenating from the Father that sustains them all.

Christ manifests God, first in sinful flesh and now as a quickening spirit.

Hi, Dust.

How do you interpret Hebrews 8:1? How about Isaiah 9:6?

Do you worship Jesus Christ?
 

Johnv

New Member
We believe in two persons, the Father and the Son. They are not coequal and they are not coeternal. The Father is the ONLY one with immortality as it is clearly stated to Timothy. In the hierarchy of the Heavens, the Father is the Most High and Christ has been placed second, sitting at his right hand... Christ manifests God, first in sinful flesh and now as a quickening spirit.
Sounds good, with the exception that it's not supported in scripture, nor is it consistent with scripture.
 

Dust

New Member
These Scriptures speak of man seeing God - but there are no Scriptures supporting the belief that God cannot look down on man. As a matter of fact, there is a whole lot of Scriptures saying that He does in fact look down on man. Here are two:

Psalm 14:2 "The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God."

Psalm 53:2 "God looks down from heaven
on the children of man

to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God."

But how does he do so? Through the spirit? Through His angels? If any flesh stood before God, they would die. "No flesh may glory in His presence." Like the light of the glory of God going through Christ when he appeared before Paul, the light coming from God would kill us instantly.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
But how does he do so? Through the spirit? Through His angels? If any flesh stood before God, they would die. "No flesh may glory in His presence." Like the light of the glory of God going through Christ when he appeared before Paul, the light coming from God would kill us instantly.

Talk about ripping scripture out of its context.
 

Havensdad

New Member
Actually it says "to him only shall you serve." If you are serving and obeying Christ, you are serving God, but that does not mean that Christ is God. It is the same as obeying the voice of an angel, such as the angel speaking to Moses. Serving or obeying the angel is obeying God because the angel is conveying the will of God. However, your religious worship should be towards the Most High, not to an angel.

In other words, "revere the Deity and serve only him."

If a wife serves her husband in the way God demands, she is serving God. If a slave serves his master in the way God demands, he is serving God.

The Angel said specifically not to "proskuneo" him, but God. He did not say "Worship God and Jesus". Nor did he say "Worship Gods".

If Proskuneo is not religious worship, then religious worship is next to non-existent in the New Testament. It is said, MULTIPLE times, that we "proskuneo" God, but are not to "proskuneo" others.

Also, your take on the Greek word "proskuneo" is incorrect. Please compare the 1st commandment:

Exo 34:14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),

with the same verse from the Septuagint...

Exo 34:14 οὐ γὰρ μὴ προσκυνήσητε θεῷ ἑτέρῳ· ὁ γὰρ κύριος ὁ θεὸς ζηλωτὸν ὄνομα, θεὸς ζηλωτής ἐστιν.
(please note, this word is a form of Proskuneo).

There is simply no getting around it. We are commanded in multiple places, to worship none but God. Jesus accepted worship: He is God, or a blasphemer.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Dust is a Christadelphian. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ as equal with the Father, sort of like the JWs. I posted that on the first page here. Just Google Christadelphian beliefs.

Who Is Jesus?
Thomas, in John 20:28, cries out to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!"



Jesus created and sustains the universe, Hebrews 1:1-3.


Titus 2:13 speaks of "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."


Jesus is described as Creator in John 1:3, Colossians 1: 16, 17, and Hebrews 2:10.


Jesus, speaking of God the Father in Luke 20:38, says that God is not the God of the dead but of the living, and Romans 14:9 says the very same thing of Christ, "that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."


Jesus is the Almighty in Revelation 1:8.


Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega in Revelation 1:8 and 22:13 (God is called the Alpha and Omega in Revelation 21:6).


Just as God does not change (Malachi 3:6, James 1:17), neither does Jesus (Hebrews 13:8).



In the Old Testament

In Isaiah 9:6, God tells us that one of the names for Jesus is "Mighty God."


Isaiah prophesies of John the Baptist in Isaiah 40:6, saying that John will call for a highway for "our God," speaking of Jesus; this is fulfilled in John 1:23.


God speaks of every knee bowing to him in Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2: 10,11 applies this to Jesus.


God says in Isaiah 42:8 that he will not give his glory to another, yet Jesus speaks in John 17:5 of the glory he had with God before the world existed.


Joel 2:32 tells us that "whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered," and we see in Romans 10:9, 10, that those who confess Jesus as Lord will be saved.


Jesus quoted and referred often to the Hebrew scriptures. In one example, after his resurrection, Jesus told the disciples, "When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me by Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must all come true," (Luke 24:44).

From
http://christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_Jesus.html
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That would be incorrect to label our beliefs as such. We believe in two persons, the Father and the Son. They are not coequal and they are not coeternal. The Father is the ONLY one with immortality as it is clearly stated to Timothy. In the hierarchy of the Heavens, the Father is the Most High and Christ has been placed second, sitting at his right hand. The angels are below Christ, but all of them are one in spirit. There is one spirit emmenating from the Father that sustains them all.

Christ manifests God, first in sinful flesh and now as a quickening spirit.

Is Jesus God?
 

Amy.G

New Member
I like what C.S. Lewis had to say about Christ in "Mere Christianity".


“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
 

ccrobinson

Active Member
dust said:
Most people think that God spoke to Moses personally. He did not.

You know why most people think that God spoke to Moses personally? Because he did. You don't get to pick and choose with verses of Scripture support your position while ignoring those that don't support your position. If you can't get the burning bush story right, what makes you think you should be listened to in regards to the Trinity?

Exodus 3:2-4
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

That's God talking to Moses personally.

You mentioned Acts 7:30. Did you forget about Acts 7:32 or just decide to ignore it?

Acts 7:30-32
And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

If you want to say that an angel of the Lord was actually in the flame, I don't think I have a problem with that, but, an angel of the Lord isn't going to say, "I am the God of thy fathers..." It's very clear that it was God who was speaking personally to Moses.
 
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