Do Calvinists Distort the Gospel?

[thatbrian]

The foundational soteriological assumptive of both Arminianism and Calvinism is the erroneous conjecture that the sin of murdering Jesus Christ is a direct benefit rather than an accountable sin by law. An individual's salvation is predicated his faith to obey the law Paul references."For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
You are wasting your time arguing over the carcass of a dead religious horse.

I would be wasting my time discussing this with you. In that you are correct. In right standing before God coming through obedience to the Law, you are also correct. Unfortunately for you, you have not done so. Fortunately, for the rest of us, Christ has obeyed the Law, and through His life and death, by faith and union with Him, we are pardoned and will be glorified with Him. Sadly - tragically, but completely justly, those who stand before Him believing their righteousness will save them will be condemned.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Jesus knows who will believe.

Absolutely! And He saves all those who will believe. And all who believe are saved. This opportunity to believe on Him is available to every man. The verses I quoted in John are repeated proof of that. If not, what was Jesus teaching in those verses I quoted from John's gospel?

 

[thatbrian]

I agree. And His sheep are those who choose to believe in Him and put their trust in Him and follow Him. Every verse I quoted in the above post clearly teaches that. If they don't, pray tell what is Jesus teaching in the verses that I quoted?

Where do you find sheep choosing a shepherd? That's not how it works.

"but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." (John 10:26)

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Where do you find sheep choosing a shepherd?

Surely you know that the analogy between us and sheep cannot be taken to the extreme. Do you know that one ram fathers many of the lambs in the fold? When the natural activity of the sheep fails to line up with the clear teaching of the Word of God, I choose the Scripture over the example of the sheep every time.

Every verse I quoted in John (and other passages as well) clearly teach that we choose to believe on Him. Whether a literal sheep chooses a shepherd or not is totally irrelevant.

 

[Rippon]

PB, it's a shame Jesus used such a poor illustration as sheep and shepherd in John 10 and other places. You know better than the Lord. We should listen to your wise words.

 

[delizzle]

The only one confused is you. John 3:16 is true. Every word of it.

So you don't believe God can love everybody? Even sinners?

You are right. I am confused. Which is why I said "i am confused. Because the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement means that Christ did not die on the cross for everyone...just the elect. You may be correct that God loves everyone. But the "whoever believes in Him" is actually" when the elect believes in Him". And that is a big "when" because they will come to the Gospel against their will (because we really don't have a will...dead to sin an all, but some how we can willingly choose to sin [emoji6]).

 

[delizzle]

Where do you find sheep choosing a shepherd? That's not how it works.

"but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." (John 10:26)

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)

Yet, the prodigal son chose to come back.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

PB, it's a shame Jesus used such a poor illustration as sheep and shepherd in John 10 and other places. You know better than the Lord. We should listen to your wise words.

This is a prime example of how one can take things out of context. Most are intelligent enough to understand that any analogy taken to an extreme is no longer an accurate analogy.

Still, it was a nice red herring that you offered us.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

 

[Jerome]

"there have been some men who have never been able to grasp the Gospel in its integrity in order to present the Grace of God to men’s minds at once in its sovereignty and in its freeness. Though their sermons sometimes ring with the clear melodious note of Grace of God, they are too often bent on qualifying the extent of its welcome and inventing explanations of their own, to wrest the simple meaning of Scriptures. Calvinists, such men may call themselves, but, unlike the Reformer whose name they adopt, they bring a system of divinity to the Bible to interpret it, instead of making every system, by its merits what they may, yield and give place to the pure and unadulterated Word of God." —Charles Spurgeon

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Where do you find sheep choosing a shepherd? That's not how it works.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

They know when and where the shepherd is about to let them out to pasture. and so they wait at the gate.....(these are my ewes)........

Then about 30 minutes later, when their hay has been scattered out and feed has been put in their troughs, they wait at the gate for that......

At the feed troughs......

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Where do you find sheep choosing a shepherd? That's not how it works................ (Acts 13:48)

Sheep are extremely "food oriented" and they only want good, clean, feed. They will turn up their noses and walk away from contaminated stuff. If one gives them good food, they will gravitate to and follow him.. In that sense it is they who choose the shepherd. But if one treats them badly and doesn't feed them clean feed, or no feed at all, they scatter.(see Ezekiel 34) Sheep don't "drive" well at all, so if you try to force them (without a dog) they scatter. If you want them to go anywhere, you lure them with food. And they know the voice of the one who feeds them. So, yeah, sheep "choose" to follow if the shepherd has something worth following him for...........

These are my sheep.....

Oh yes, the reason I had entitled this video "No Rod or Staff" is because I am having a hard time walking without tripping over some of these sheep because some are constantly in front of my legs. But with my staff in one hand, I can gently touch them with it and they will clear out of my path enough to let me walk safely. That's just one of the many uses I have found for my "staff."

 

[delizzle]

Yet, the prodigal son chose to come back.

However, in all fairness, the good shepherd did go out to find the one lost sheep.

 

[TCassidy]

Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement means that Christ did not die on the cross for everyone.

Wrong again. Christ died for all. Again you have conflated His death with the application of the Atonement. Two very different subjects.

 

[TCassidy]

If not, what was Jesus teaching in those verses I quoted from John's gospel?

That salvation is by the Grace of God, not of the works of the flesh.

 

[delizzle]

Wrong again. Christ died for all. Again you have conflated His death with the application of the Atonement. Two very different subjects.

Could you please explain to me what the "L" in T.U.L.I.P. is and what it actually means? This is a legitimate question because I think I may have misunderstood it.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

However, in all fairness, the good shepherd did go out to find the one lost sheep.

FWIW, That was a sheep, which he already owned in the first place.

 

[delizzle]

FWIW, That was a sheep, which he already owned in the first place.

True.

 

[TCassidy]

Every verse I quoted in John (and other passages as well) clearly teach that we choose to believe on Him.

Of course we do. But who is it that will believe? The enemy of God? The one who refuses to accept the Gospel, who considers it foolish? Or the one who has been given a new, living, heart of faith with which to believe, repent, and obey?

Which is it? Do "my sheep hear my voice and follow me" or did He say "Satan's goats hear my voice and follow me?" It is either one or the other.